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Sabresque · 07-26-2002, 02:50 PM

What do you guys think of this new USFA rule, effective Aug. 1st?
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Direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, or end when three periods of three minutes, with a one-minute period of rest between each period, have passed. In saber only, the first period will end either when the three minutes have passed or when the score of one of the fencers has reached eight.
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So in almost every sabre bout, there'll be a one minute break when we reach eight touches? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Peach · 07-26-2002, 03:16 PM

They've been doing that in World Cups already. I'm in favor of it in some ways--if I am screwing up a DE it's nice to have a moment to yank my head out of my hindmost regions, or to catch my breath, or (if my coach or a teammate happens to be around) to benefit from some advice. However, I lost my last DE in a World Cup partly because (a) I was too tired and out of condition for the 8-touch rule to do me much good and (b) my opponent's coach told her what to do at the break (I was ahead).

Strategically it might do some good things for sabre.

counter riposte · 07-26-2002, 04:43 PM

I like the idea of stopping the bout at touch 8 of the duel. Keeping up stamina and getting water can be CREUL after trying to keep up with your opponent after 5 touches. A break at 8 sounds about right.

Inquartata · 07-26-2002, 07:15 PM

Don't care for the idea of a forced break, myself. Sabre bouts are usually over in a twinkling, anyway; a pause is just an opportunity to go "cold". I have never been so exhausted in a 15 touch bout that I needed a rest midway.

Of course, it isn't for the fencers. It's for the coaches. This will give them a chance to advise in earnest, instead of calling terse instructions that as often as not go unheard or are ignored from behind their students.

As usual, it's the coaches, a few elite fencers, and the officials who really matter.

Sabre eh? · 07-27-2002, 12:20 PM

Hi There,
This is my first post. So I'll just wade in on the topic. I agree with Peach on some aspects. They have instituted the break at 8 points at the world cups and they have already done this in the tournaments in Canada as well. It is just a matter of getting used to it. I have been in situations where I have been ahead and behind. It didn't make a difference either way other than providing a break in the actions. I was able to maintain the focus in each of the situations. In matches where it has been extremely close and the fencers are just trading off points, the break is greatly appreciated by both. Sometimes, I think that in such situations it helps stabilizes the person's nerves to go in for the final points. Sabre matches in reality go by rather quickly, and the break gives the audience a chance to catch up and see what is happening. I found at the world cups in the Europe, they have already adjusted quickly to the break. There are some tactical advantages as your coach can give you pointers and it can give you a well needed break. Overall, I always thought that the 15 hit matches were extremely long and a break is always appreciated.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts.

nahouw · 07-27-2002, 08:33 PM

I was observing a referee being tested at our last event. We have 2 vice presidents of the USFA in our division, and were implementing all the new rules.

At the eighth touch, one of the kids asked why and if we had to do this -- I told him it is the new rule, get used to it. Turns out that he was ahead and lost the bout. It was a good learning experience he got (he said he didn't like the rule to begin with, and now he knows what happens and can adjust accordingly).

The referees also needed some time to adjust to this rule -- one went to 9 touches before he remembered he had to stop for the break.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-28-2002, 01:01 PM

Its weird because my club never knew about this ensuing rule but have on occasion applied it to our 15 point epee bouts.

Here's an off subject question. When your club has friendly bouts within itself, how many touches do you generally go?

Our club almost exclusively goes 15 touches on all bouts to simulate the DE's. I like running the gauntlet and fence everyone without sitting down.

Saber-Psycho · 07-28-2002, 01:47 PM

The break at 8 touches will be both a hindrance and a help to most fencers.
If you're winning it's always bad to let them get composed.
But if you're losing it's always good to have a moment to get help from your coach, get water etc...

I think that we will eventually be doing every thing by the FIE standards.
I can't believe they're going to time Saber.

Are they going to do it in y-10 and y-12?
Maybe in y-10 when they do simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous after simultaneous etc...... they'll maybe run out the clock, that's only like five seconds each.
In general, it's a good rule.

In my club, we usually do ten touch bouts, winner stays up.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-28-2002, 02:27 PM

I too have had breaks help and hinder me. I had one instance where I was getting creamed until I fell hard retreating. My rear was bruised for a week because I landed on a vollyball post mount. When I was ready to fence again, I went from loosing 3-8 to winning 15-11.

At the same time, you can be on fire and have a break and completely forget what you were doing right and get creamed afterwards.

KShan5[PrFC] · 07-28-2002, 03:14 PM

I have not been in a tournament with this rule beeing enforced. But I can tell you I don't like the idea. Sabre bouts are quick, I don't see why that should change. I also agree that it's only a time for a fencer to go cold. Now, I might get into a tournemt next year and be down, 8-3, and really appreciate this rule. But, as for now, I don't think I will like it at all. Maybe we should revisit this topic in a few monthes?

oiuyt · 07-28-2002, 04:44 PM

Speaking as a coach I love this rule. One of the big frustrations in trying to coach a sabre fencer in DEs is that you CAN'T ever give even slightly complicated advice (not that you EVER want to over-complicate the advice, but there's still a level above what shouted stripside advice can do).

As a fencer I will probably end up dealing with this like everything else. Sometimes it'll help, sometimes it'll hurt. It hurt me in Pebody when I went from 8-5 to 10-15 after my opponent got some good coaching advice and changed his game. I could've really used a break in a bout in IA in Greenville where I wasn't thinking and just let the score run away.

-B

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-28-2002, 10:04 PM

Looking at fencing from a combat standpoint, would you really get breaks in the middle of armed combat? Maybe someone who's much more knowledgable in history will tell me yes, but imo, I say no.

And I respect everyone's opinion that fencing today does not bear any resemblance or herritage with dueling. Still, D'Artagnan likes to think of fencing as combat.

Ben[PrFC] · 07-28-2002, 10:18 PM

I love this rule.
I used to be the sprinter equivelant of a fencer..you know what I mean. I had a decent idea of what I was doing, but I ran out of steam quickly, so back then I probably would have appreciated this rule more. But as I find myself getting into better and better shape, even tho I don't necessarily need the break it's good to have. As far as it giving an advantage to the person who is losing, I say if you're winning and can't keep your head and continue it, then you deserve to lose. If he adapts to what you're doing, just adapt to his changes - it's not about continuously executing what was working in the first part of the bout, it's figuring out how to find new things that work.

I think this puts sabre more on par with other weapons also. Where as foil and epee bouts are more likely to go into the second and third period, sabre rarely does - and we expend just as much if not more energy. We deserve a break

shyHeidi · 07-28-2002, 11:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Here's an off subject question. When your club has friendly bouts within itself, how many touches do you generally go?<hr /></blockquote>Ooh, off-subject, how fun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Well, to put in my answer, my "club" (A.K.A. junior college class) fences only to 5 (well, usually we don't bother to keep score, but when we do, it's 5) because we usually don't have alot of time left by the time we get to free fencing and you get to fence more of a variety that way. Usually, we all line up and fence 'til the teacher calls "halt, switch" at which point we all move one to the right and fence the next person in the line. We don't take a break though, unless we really need to.
Um... yeah.
I like JC fencing. Funny thing, though, after taking the class 4 or 5 times, they don't really let you register for it anymore...

Inquartata · 07-29-2002, 07:58 PM

Of late, it's been just myself and one other sabre-fencer at Saturday practices. It's not uncommon for us to fence without a break for fifteen, twenty, occasionally as long as thirty minutes. ( You can see, perhaps, why a piddling 15 touch bout is nothing to us, endurance-wise. )

When there are more people, we do 15-touch bouts almost exclusively, each fencer doing two of these before yielding his or her place to the person "on deck". We find that this is the only way to get as much fencing time as a foilist or epeeist gets in a single 5-touch bout. Of course, we're working a lot harder at it, given the headlong nature of sabre; but really, if you need a rest-and-water break in a 15-touch sabre bout you are probably doing the wrong weapon. Like I said, the new rule is for the coaches and officials.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-30-2002, 07:08 AM

My club has no organized leader so we don't do any footwork drills or stuff like that.

We just hook up and fence and a few people get lessons from more experienced fencers and others just want the other fencers to critique them.

I am usually on the giving end, but that's okay. I do my homework at home and study tactical and technical books on epee to make up for my lack of instruction.

We've been known on occasion to fence more than 15 touches. I generally do that with they guy whoose in La La land and thinks that because he's got FIE gear that he will somehow be better. I generally cream him so quick and easy that 15 touches is too fast. What's the point of hooking up for such small bouts? This is the guy who I fleched on 10 out of 15 touches and he never used his head enough to think, maybe I should retreat fast and stop thrust. I'd try to explain some tactics to him but he's always too busy talking to himself to listen to me.

Peach · 07-30-2002, 07:44 AM

We fence to 5, or 3 sets of 5 (best 2 out of 3), pr 15, or occasionally 10 (I have to practice for those for veterans). We try to set it up when we're doing single 5-touch bouts so that we're doing a really fast round-robin with everybody fencing everybody else, especially on the good nights when we have at least five or six sabre fencers there. Sometimes we just free-fence--there's a lot of room at our club and if there's only a couple of sabre fencers that night we lay claim to one of the strips and just practice stuff until we're ready to fall over.

We don't like to just do 15s because you have to learn to fence 5-touch bouts if you want to do well in pools.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-30-2002, 09:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Peach:

We don't like to just do 15s because you have to learn to fence 5-touch bouts if you want to do well in pools.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe that's why I went 2 and 2 in my last pool bouts at a tournament, but won the whole thing in the DE's.

Peach · 07-30-2002, 11:28 AM

I used to do that, but I got tired of climbing back up from the bottom. I spent a few months fencing nothing but 5-touch bouts after I did that at one particularly annoying tournament, and it paid off.

scarlet_woman156k · 07-30-2002, 12:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Its weird because my club never knew about this ensuing rule but have on occasion applied it to our 15 point epee bouts.

Here's an off subject question. When your club has friendly bouts within itself, how many touches do you generally go?

Our club almost exclusively goes 15 touches on all bouts to simulate the DE's. I like running the gauntlet and fence everyone without sitting down.<hr /></blockquote>My rule is: fence at practice for time, not for points. Practice for me is devoted to technique and tactics, as well as endurance, and should not simulate competition bouts. Practice is for working out problems and perfecting technique/tactics.

When I want to get in "competitive mode," I prefer to use a local tournament to get into that mindset. Otherwise, I'll ask a clubmate if they'd like to do a mock bout....of both 5 and 15. Both 5 and 15 touch bouts have different mindsets, so I've found it unwise to always go to 15 in mock bouting.