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scarlet_woman156k · 07-30-2002, 12:37 PM

BTW: I like the new rule. Have a lot of friends who fence sabre, and would like it to be prolonged a bit more as they go so quickly. Want to support and cheer!

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-31-2002, 10:25 AM

I could use to remember Scarlet's point. I tend to only worry about the outcome, and not the process, during all bouts.

I am lucky in that my coach is getting a burst of enthusiasm from the fact that Nationals is so close this year. He ran me into the ground last night drilling me. " Engarde, press, disengage; NO NO!!! don't let your hand roll over. Engarde, press, disengage........

I thought I was going to fall over

veeco · 07-31-2002, 11:14 AM

Yeah. Coaches are like that. You'd think that their job is to motivate you, but really, that's not their job. YOUR job is to motivate the coach. Then their job is to drill you to death

scarlet_woman156k · 07-31-2002, 01:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
[QB]I tend to only worry about the outcome, and not the process, during all bouts. QB]<hr /></blockquote>My thoughts, because I KNOW they have worked for me...and it's long:
Your first mistake is "worrying." How much fun is fencing when worrying is in the mix? Second, concerning the mind with outcome should always (even in competition) be in the background. The main concern should always be: absolute concentration in the present moment. Once the mind begins to move forward and backward in time (worrying about what just happened and/or worrying about the future result), the focus is not in the present moment. What do YOU think will happen?

Worrying actually causes what you're worried about TO happen! Talk about digging your own grave.

Fencing is an accumulative process...some move faster in learning, some are slower. But the last thing that should be a concern is outcome. Because if the mind is concentrated in the *present moment at all times*, the outcome will *naturally* evolve to 1st place.

If there is a bad outcome. Sit back as to why. Was there looking back at the past, or looking at the future? What was the mental state: calm, angry, worry, frustration, complete break down, etc.? How did one react when a touch/multiple touches were scored against you: angry (at self or opponent?), frustrated, sad, neutral, etc.?

Also, if it was a good outcome, ask yourself why it was a good one as well?

I've also found that ego cannot be involved in the game if there is to be total concentration. Ego is a distraction as well. When ego (ie, sizing other fencers up in my case) starts to arise, I do a mantra (seriously): "Not me, not mine, not myself." Works like a charm.

Trust me, it's hard not "worrying about outcome" at practice. There are plenty of clubmates at my club who have large heads/egos, who like to think mock bouting somehow has real merit to their "status" as a fencer. It's a testosterone thing, I guess. But if you just tell them your practicing some techniques and tactics and aren't concerned about "points," that should dissolve any Alpha male issues you all might have.

In all seriousness, I hardly ever win "mock bouts" at practice, which would make you think I was target practice at tournaments. But it's completely the contrary.

I think I should shut up and go back under my rock now.

KShan5[PrFC] · 10-16-2002, 08:16 PM

Well I was searching for womething esle and foudn htis, so I thought I'd revive it.

I fenced in my first bout with the 8 touch break in it about a month ago at the Atheletic Club in NY. I am a U, and I was fencing a B fencer, who I know. At the 8 topuch break it was 8-0 him. So he has Oiuyt (spelling) come over and mock coach him. It was pretty ammusing to me. I eventually got two touches before the bout ended. All in all I don't feel I can say anything critical of this rule through that experience.
But, another time I fenced with it and I didn't like it, just because I lost focus, which I later regained, andi didn't loose the bout, after my opponenet started losing in, but it was too lcose for sompfort, and I didn't like it.

Inquartata · 10-16-2002, 11:41 PM

A couple of people mentioned to me in Orlando that they felt that the break definitely favors the older fencers against the "run and gun" kids. I didn't notice any particular advantage in that regard, but I did find that it tended to dissipate my intensity to have to stop halfway through and stand around while the referee went and sat down and rested...

Tim P. Miceli · 10-17-2002, 10:02 AM

Call me critical, but it seems that some people are just being sore loosers, Instead of concintrating on what they have to work on or the fact that they couldn't adapt when their opponent recived some coaching, they complain, and/or make excuses: I lost my concintration, or I was up 8-whatever and then I lost BECAUSE of the break.

-thats what its sounding like any way-

I am sorry but has it never happened before where someone was down whatever-8 and came back to win?

I think that this rule will raise the bar on saber fencing and require fencers to be more adaptable. It will also help the fencers to become more versitile, & require them to reflect on their own technique, plus a bunch of other stuf that really can't be labled as bad for the sport.

any way just my 2 cents

Inquartata · 10-18-2002, 11:24 PM

Did I SAY my "opponent got coaching"? Did I SAY "I lost because of the break"? No. I said it dissipated my intensity somewhat.

I also don't see where you get all these wondrous benefits from a one-minute break. It doesn't change the fencing, like the no-crossover rule did. It isn't better, just different.

epeemike81 · 10-19-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
I also don't see where you get all these wondrous benefits from a one-minute break. It doesn't change the fencing, like the no-crossover rule did. It isn't better, just different.

It frequently DOES change the dynamic of that bout. good coaching, or even good self evaluation during the one minute break can easily turn the dynamic of the bout around. it adds another dimension to the fencing. Whether that is good or bad depends on your point of view, but it is certainly NOT indifferent. For example, my coach is a good sabreur, but more than that he screws with people. at a world cup earlier this year, he was screwing with a world class fencer to the tune of 8-5 when the break came. the fencer got coaching, and won 15-10. Now, personally, despite the fact that my coach was on the short end of the stick on that one, I still think its a good idea because I believe that it will raise the level of complexity in the fencing by making it very difficult to railroad somebody on one or two actions.

-m

Inquartata · 10-19-2002, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by epeemike81
it will...make it very difficult to railroad somebody on one or two actions.

-m

Oh, could I tell you a tale from Orlando...

Anyway, in my admittedly brief experience fencing under this rule change thus far I still see neither great advantage nor great disadvantage to it, fencing-wise. Maybe were I in the "big leagues", or had I more faith in the usefulness of strip-side coaching than I do, I would feel differently. But as it is I have to stand by my opinion that it's pretty much a push.

epeemike81 · 10-20-2002, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
or had I more faith in the usefulness of strip-side coaching than I do

Get a better coach.

Stripside coaching has FREQUENTLY turned bouts of mine around, as well as my coaching has occasionally turned teammates bouts around (sometimes even in their favor!

)

-m

Inquartata · 10-22-2002, 12:11 AM

Since I have no coach, probably ANYone would be an improvement...

But what I meant was not that it's ineffectual for me, but that from watching other fencers and their coaches the most common scenarion seems to be (a) the coach giving good, solid advice, and (b) the fencer either not hearing it, ignoring it, or being unable to make himself implement it. I see a lot of this. The fencer keeps right on doing what he's been doing, and the coach gets more and more frustrated. the number of times I have been able to see strip coaching work, manifestly work, over the last 20 years I could count on my fingers, I think...

epeemike81 · 10-22-2002, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
Since I have no coach, probably ANYone would be an improvement...

But what I meant was not that it's ineffectual for me, but that from watching other fencers and their coaches the most common scenarion seems to be (a) the coach giving good, solid advice, and (b) the fencer either not hearing it, ignoring it, or being unable to make himself implement it. I see a lot of this. The fencer keeps right on doing what he's been doing, and the coach gets more and more frustrated. the number of times I have been able to see strip coaching work, manifestly work, over the last 20 years I could count on my fingers, I think...

First, let me clarify: there are two types of strip coaching which I have seen and experienced. in the first type, the coach says "this guy is doing X, so you should do Y." where X and Y are VERY specific actions. This type of coaching is virtually useless, as once the opponent adapts to that move, the fencer is SOL. The second type of coaching is general strategic coaching (e.g. "you are going only one direction too much. too much either in OR out. you need to go in and out, in and out."). It is this type of advice, which leaves the specifics to the fencer and augments the fencers own thought, that is helpful.

As for what you have seen over the past 20 years, it simply doesn't jive with what I have seen over admittedly fewer years. Clearly, there are some fencers for whom it doesn't help, but it seems like the majority I have seen find it helpful.

-m

Inquartata · 10-22-2002, 01:04 AM

Ah, well, there's a difference between the subjective impression that a particular fencer may have that "it helps me" or "that was useful" and a measurable effect. All sorts of psychological tendencies go into the making of the former, and the fencer's opinion may or may not reflect the reality of the situation. Sure, some are going to think it's the best thing since the wheel, but is it because they can point to concrete results of the I-was-losing-then-coach-said-X-and-I-won sort or is it because of more inchoate feelings that "I have someone in my corner, I'm not alone in this, that gives me more confidence,etc"? Not that the latter has no value, or that I'm implying that coaches are useless, but I do think their effecuality during bouts is pretty minimal, at least at the levels I have seen.

Generally what I see is that a fencer who is losing to begin with and then gets coached goes on to...continue to lose. And all too many of them seem to do so in pretty much the same fashion they were doing before they got the advice. If he's winning instead, he's even more prone to ignore the advice and just keep doing what's working ( and rightly so ). Like I said, the times I've seen a fencer "pull himself together" and come out of a coaching break fencing completely differently have been few and far between.

Peach · 10-22-2002, 01:10 AM

I like the break if my coach is around because it allows me to psychologically manipulate my opponent's state of mind. If my coach is around, I can stand talking with him about what I'm going to eat for dinner (he knows better than to give me specific advice aside from "straighten up, darnit") and look as if I'm somebody to take seriously. I can joke with the referee or look devil-may-care. I can compliment my opponent on her socks. I can whistle gaily. Alternatively, I can stagger about whining and limping as if on my last legs, which unfortunately doesn't work with most of my opponents any more.

epeemike81 · 10-22-2002, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
Ah, well, there's a difference between the subjective impression that a particular fencer may have that "it helps me" or "that was useful" and a measurable effect. All sorts of psychological tendencies go into the making of the former, and the fencer's opinion may or may not reflect the reality of the situation.

Very true. which can also be said about YOUR anecdotal evidence. so clearly, this position means that we should just end this discussion until somebody does a study.

Again, I have seen many times which fencers have come back after receiving coaching. this is only anecdotal evidence, but until somebody provides that study, it is all I have. Anybody else care to weigh in??

-m

Inquartata · 10-22-2002, 02:25 AM

Touche...