The courageous decision of a "Maître d'Armes"

[Alan]

Source :
-------

http://www.escrime-info.com/modules/...d=5951&forum=9

"Le fait que les conséquences pédagogiques sur la formation des jeunes sont importantes n'intéresse ni la FIE, ni les fournisseurs. Ce n'est pas leur job. De toute façon, avec une poignée d'escrimeurs on fait des champions, c'est ce qui importe.


En conséquence, pour moi et jusqu'à plus ample informé, mes élèves des petites catégories ne se déplaceront plus sur des tournois qui se tirent à l'électrique. J'en suis désolé pour mes amis organisateurs, mais j'enseigne l'escrime, pas l'allumage de lampes.


PS : Il serait bien que les organisateurs spécifient sur leur invitation les normes des appareils qui seront utilisés. Je n'ai pas envie de me déplacer pour rien, et par défaut je considèrerais les appareils comme répondant aux nouveaux temps.

In English :
---------

"The fact that the pedagogic consequences on the education of the youngsters of these test timings are important does not interest the FIE, nor
the manufacturers. It is not their job. Anyhow with a bunch of fencers you can create champions, that is that is important.

As a consequence, for me and until a decision is made, my pupils of the young categories will not go anymore on competitions where electricity is used. I am sorry about that for my friends organizers, but i teach fencing,
not lighting of lamps.

PS :Unless of course the organizers precise on the invitations that the official
foil timings are used"

The same Maître d'Armes in the same thread :
-------------------------------------------

"Or, pour avoir vu ce que donnent ces nouveaux temps avec des petits, je sais que ce que je leur apprend (basé sur la convention) ne leur permettra pas de défendre leurs chances (une riposte annulée par la remise d'attaque, un petit ne comprend pas).
Ce qui signifie pour moi deux possibilités :
- ne plus enseigner la convention (je sais faire), mais alors ils n'apprendront plus la parade-riposte, dont ils auront besoin arrivés dans les plus grandes catégories (ou ils aurons la musculature pour qu'elle soit efficace)."

In English :
----------

" Having seen the result of these test timings on the small children, i know that what i learn to them (based on the convention) will not permit them to defend their chances ( a riposte cancelled by the remise of tha attack is something that a child cannot understand).

This means 2 possibilities for me :
- to not teach the convention ( i know how to do this), but then they will not learn the parade-riposte anymore, and they will need the parade-riposte
once they arrive in the older categories (with the muscles necessary to make it efficient)."

[downunder]

have you ever considered that posting on a forum will do nothing at all towards your cause? i would almost go so far as to say no one that reads this forum has any effect on what happens with the foil timings?

[esskreemr]

Yet it's still relevant to the board's main topic. Most of us are fencers, it's good to hear the differing opinions. The FIE is definitely not going to publish them in Escrimé or on its website. They seem to be perfectly content to try to maintain the illusion that everybody is happy with the new timings and want to see even more abrupt, untested changes.

[Alan]

have you ever considered that posting on a forum will do nothing at all towards your cause? i would almost go so far as to say no one that reads this forum has any effect on what happens with the foil timings?

Have you ever considered to just ignore the threads what do not interest you ?


I am sure they are plenty of foilists and foil trainers interested by this information.

[fencerontheline]

Like me.

Thank you for the information. This is quite a brave fencing master...

Alan,
Do you know who he is/ what his results have been in the past?

[Alan]

Like me.

Thank you for the information. This is quite a brave fencing master...

Alan,
Do you know who he is/ what his results have been in the past?

I don't know him personnally.

Here is his profile on the French Forum :

http://www.escrime-info.com/userinfo.php?uid=96

[wflaschka]

As a consequence, for me and until a decision is made, my pupils of the young categories will not go anymore on competitions where electricity is used. I am sorry about that for my friends organizers, but i teach fencing, not lighting of lamps.

I suppose it's sort of courageous. And there's hope for him, because (supposedly) the timings are going to be talked about at the FIE congress. By this point in time, I'm upset at the handling of the timing changes... but if there's going to be another change I'd like to see the Italian proposal.

It would also be courageous, in a way, to take a "can do" attitude to setbacks. What fencing needs -- what it always needs -- is masters who can take all the changes generated in the world and integrate it with the sport to keep fencing as Fencing. Whether the setbacks are physical, political, technological, or even fundamental changes in culture. The idea is that the core of what makes fencing cool should be protected and propogated.

It seems to have worked so far, through the introduction of masks, electric weapons, zillions of rules changes, cheating scandals and lots of politics. Of course it's a subjective call, but fencing still feels important and "sacred", even after the timing changes.

Where he's thinking through the ramifications of the changes (immediate-remise) on training children, it gets very interesting. Early on there was an expectation that the timing changes would simplify teaching foil convention.

[rcmatthews]

I don't think it's courageous at all. It's not sending the right message to the kids, I don;t think. He is basically telling them that they cannot win.

[Allen Evans]

Fencing masters, like everything else, come in a variety of stripes. If the new timings are kicked out in a month or two, this master will look like a visionary, making a stand for what was ultimately right.

But I suspect the test timings (or a version of them) will stay. What then? He’s done the adult version of “taking my ball and going home”. Sometimes, that’s appropriate, when there is cheating going on, or you are being disadvantaged in some way personally. But we are all working under the handicap of the timings, and it’s a struggle for any of us to teach our students lessons that transfer to the strip. Instead of being a part of fencing, being a part of dealing with these timings, he is now a part of…nothing.

Or, I should say, his kids are. Because he’s still teaching obviously, and earning a living (unless he receives a large part of his income from coaching at tournaments). It reminds me of a coach I know who discourages his students from fencing outside of the club for fear that poorly trained fencers will “ruin” them. Who does this attitude serve, in the end?

[rcmatthews]

Those are my sentiments expressed in a much more eloquent form.

[Jvanhousen]

He’s done the adult version of “taking my ball and going home”.

Or you could say he's standing up for what he believes is right. One of the last tourneys I was in, I watched a very up and comming C rated team mate fencing to reach the A2 final. He used his head to come from behind and at 14-14 did exactly the right thing and nailed his opponant directly on the sternum. The ref saw it, the spectators saw it, he was reaching for his mask when he noticed the machine was blank and then his opponant did a clumbsy jab, end of bout/tournement for him. Ah, but the spectators got a great show, no?
New foilists will learn to jab after every action, but at least it'll be one light for the TV audience.
[QUOTE=Who does this attitude serve, in the end?[/QUOTE]
Everyone if he and other get noticed. I applaud him for opposing the dumbing down of foil.

[MikeHarm]

Does this salle ever teach epee to the kids? If they leave the remise bit out of the epee training I have to imagine it would totally cripple the kids game.

[wflaschka]

nailed his opponant directly on the sternum. The ref saw it, the spectators saw it, he was reaching for his mask when he noticed the machine was blank and then his opponant did a clumbsy jab, end of bout/tournement for him.

Was this under the old timings or the new timings? Because if it was under the old timings, I recommend we get rid of them ASAP.

The very same thing has happened to fencers in the past, and it was timing nonspecific. Yeah it happens more under the new timings, but it's also possible to fence a finals without it happening. There are some discussion threads where people try to figure out what brands of scoring boxes might be the lead causes, and some other threads where people tried to find video evidence of this happening, and everybody talks about tip-tape.

Pre-timing change, when the lights didn't go off, we just got ticked. Post-timing change, when the lights don't go off, we have someone to blame. A good course of action will always be to improve technique. Technique can never be good enough. And if the box is the root cause of a light not going off, well, at least it's affecting both fencers equally, so it's still a good idea to work on technique.

[Allen Evans]

The ref saw it, the spectators saw it, he was reaching for his mask when he noticed the machine was blank and then his opponant did a clumbsy jab, end of bout/tournement for him.

Why did the referee allow the touch after the "Halt"?

I'll admit, a straw man question. But I'll side with Walter on this. If this had happened two years ago, everyone would have groaned, and the "C" fencer would have learned a valuable lesson about continuing to fence until a "Halt" is called. And the next tournament, he'd stay on guard and get that last touch. But now, instead of learning a lesson, it's the box's fault.

Believe me. Honest. I'm not a fan of the new foil timings. But I'm also not a fan of the "I don't like the rules so I won't play" approach to making a stand. It's even less productive than Alan's constant braying about the broken test timings, which, while annoying, is at least an active protest that I have to either acknowlege or take steps to ignore.

It's a lot easier to ignore someone who isn't there.

[Jvanhousen]

Why did the referee allow the touch after the "Halt"?

Never said the touch arrived after the halt.

[Alan]

I don't think it's courageous at all. It's not sending the right message to the kids, I don;t think. He is basically telling them that they cannot win.

Not at all. He just wants them to learn the convention from the start.

Then they get older they will use these broken test timings if they are still
used.

Broken and i should add breaking test timings : may foilists and foil experts
think that they break the convention for all categories but it is even more obvious with the youngest.

[pigeonmeister]

Not at all. He just wants them to learn the convention from the start.

Then they get older they will use these broken test timings if they are still
used.

Broken and i should add breaking test timings : may foilists and foil experts
think that they break the convention for all categories but it is even more obvious with the youngest.

Sounds a bit self-righteous to me. Nobody is bigger than the sport, and the sport is defined by the current competetive environment. He is denying his pupils the abilty to orientate themselves within this current environment.

an equally self-righteous master could have refused to send his pupils to old timings competetitions because the flick and its incorporation within the interpretation of ROW was against 'convention'. I think the comment about not teaching how to light lamps, conveniently side-steps the reality that electric fencing changed the nature of fencing to exactly that aim.

Why can't he just train his pupils to stop being hit by a remese?

[Alan]

Nobody is bigger than the sport,

I hope that King René will get your message !!!

[achilleus]

Sounds a bit self-righteous to me. Nobody is bigger than the sport, and the sport is defined by the current competetive environment. He is denying his pupils the abilty to orientate themselves within this current environment.

an equally self-righteous master could have refused to send his pupils to old timings competetitions because the flick and its incorporation within the interpretation of ROW was against 'convention'. I think the comment about not teaching how to light lamps, conveniently side-steps the reality that electric fencing changed the nature of fencing to exactly that aim.

Why can't he just train his pupils to stop being hit by a remese?

It's funny, their are/were coaches who did that. One comes to mind, his name is Gaugler. Pretty soon, we are gonna have an extra branch of fencing to add to all the CF, HF, SF debates...

[randomsabreur]

I think that the point that the coach is making is that if he takes his young (i.e. under 14 or so) fencers to electric competitions, they will either lose if they fence conventionally. Far too many coaches are too focussed on winning in the younger categories, while it may be better for a fencer's development if they are taught first how to fence and then how to win. I think that this is a sensible attitude because, although it would be possible for him to teach young fencers moves which would be effective in the categories they are in at present, this would stifle their growth as fencers in the future, in that they would not have been trained in the fundamentals of priority and the variety of actions needed.

Additionally, the impression I got from the French text was that it was difficult to teach the correct, effective actions that would succeed under the new timings to young fencers more because of the lack of muscle development which would mean that they do not necessarily have the fine control needed to fix the point (but keep the relaxation to avoid overbending etc) which challenges even the top fencers.

It is all very well teaching kids how to win now, but there should be consideration of future development as well.