Épeé: Bastard Child of Foil.

[esskreemr]

Many people seem to be laboring under the false impression that foil is merely a training tool for épeé. I would just like to clarify that not only is this a falsity, it's a historical impossibility. The development of foil precedes the epee by nearly 200 years. Epee is clearly the bastard offshoot of the foil.

Fencing as a sport can be traced back to the days of the Egyptians. Modern Olympic style fencing's roots, however, are firmly embedded in the development of the rapier and its descendants.


In the 1500s the rapier (Spada da Lato a Striscia in Italian) began to increase in popularity throughout much of Europe. A refinement of the side sword (Spada da Lato) which helped bring dueling to civilian life, the rapier may owe it's name to the Spanish term espada de ropiera ("robe sword" Frenchified to rapiere and then Britishized to rapier). The use of the rapier required skill and finesse and allowed for elaborate attacks and defenses and heavily favored the thrust over the cut. Predominant in the rapier period was the use of parrying devices such as cloaks, bucklers and even specialized daggers. This saw the rise of several fencing schools that trained in techniques that utilized the quick and agile rapier. Dueling became a favorite past time of many and at one point had a greater body count than warfare.
Rapier masters used smaller lighter versions of rapiers for training. It is important to note that rapiers were double-edged, pointed weapons used predominantly for thrusting. Smaller, lighter versions of rapiers were used for training, these weapons had been made safer by dulling the edge and 'foiling' the tip (turning it down). These practice rapiers bear little resemblance to the modern foil with its forte and thrust only use.

Through refinements to make them lighter and faster while retaining the ability to parry with the blade, rapiers eventually became thrusting only weapons with the lower portion of the blade (forte) being edged only to discourage the opponent from grabbing the blade.

Eventually (1700s to mid 1700s), the small sword began to see increased use as a dueling sword. A smaller and lighter version of the rapier, the small sword (also known as a court sword) was characterized by a less elaborate guard, a stiff triangular colichemarde blade (forte portion of modern weapons) allowing parrying of heavier weapons , and a slender pointed tip. The small sword's speed and maneuverability made double-time actions increasingly important. The complex parries and attacks required constant practice and development. One of the most lethal bladed weapons in history (dueling was now very popular amongst civilians), the small sword's training weapon, the foil (because of its foiled, or flattened, tip) became known by the French as le fleuret, or flower, because of the leather safety tip). The French salles, small-sword training centers, developed right of way and limited target areas which form the basis of Modern Olympic fencing's conventions today. The modern foil is a direct descendant of the foiled small sword.

In the mid 1800s, fatal had declined significantly for a number of reasons. The lethal success of the small sword had led to severe penalties for dueling. Some hold that the fencing strip, or piste (path), is a descendant of duelists fighting it out in forest paths where they were less likely to be discovered by authorities. Others contend that linear fencing was the natural progression to double-time moves allowed by the lighter swifter pointed weapons.

At this point, the small sword lost its edge completely and became known as a dueling sword (épeé de terrain). Due to the severe penalties (at least for the non-nobility), duelists now focused on crippling the opponent with arm and leg strikes hoping to win without killing the opponent. The dueling sword's 'foiled' practice form was known as an epee (épeé for people who really like diacritic marks. This is the basis of modern epee fencing.

So, as a sporting/practice weapon, the foil precedes the epee by nearly 200 years. The foil is neither a descendant of epee nor a practice weapon for epee. To say that foil is the training tool, and epee is the dueling weapon exposes a profound lack of knowledge of the history of the European sword.

Summary:

Modern sport foil is a direct descendant of the training tool for the small sword, a very successful offshoot of the rapier. Foil's conventions are rooted in techniques that French masters developed "based on subtlety of movement, double-time parries, and complex attacks."

Epee is a training tool for the dueling sword. Its techniques were developed to mitigate the potential of a lethal hit focusing on disabling the opponent without killing him. If anyone says that their epee is anything but a training tool, have them poke you with it. If you don't bleed, it's a training tool, no closer to a sword than a foil is.

The first modern Olympics featured foil and sabre only. Epee wasn't introduced until the 1900 games.

Resources:
http://www.georgehernandez.com/xMart...ordHistory.htm
http://home.lynx.net/bactau/modern.htm
http://huyngu.tripod.com/fencing/history2.html
http://www.morris.umn.edu/~fencing/history.html
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/enc...mall_sword.htm
http://www.chevroncars.com/wocc/lrn/...orts/a1849.xml

[keith]

Its true many a french master taught their pupils how to hit their opponent on the back of the head while looking them in the eyes.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The epee is the evolution of the sword. It precedes the foil by however long swords have been around.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The epee isnt a training tool. Its a game. Foil however, is a game in preparation for another game, that game being epee. At that, foil is a fun game, so it becomes training for itself.

[Fencergrl]

I feel like such a bastard... for loving epee so.

[ReverseLunge]

Epee = Electric guitar
Foil = Air guitar
saber = .......um.....playing the skin flute.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Many people seem to be laboring under the ... blah blah blah ... I would just like to clarify that not only is this a ...

Zzzzzzzz....
Hunh?! What? Is he done yet?

... Through refinements to make them lighter and faster while retaining the ability to parry with the ... blah blah blah .... In the mid 1800s, fatalities had declined significantly for ...

Oh, just shoot him already!

[Fencergrl]

Let's just gang up and poke him with our epees.... ... all together now.... POKE!

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by Esskreemr

Epee is clearly the bastard offshoot of the foil.

You're too cute. But I love you anyways.

Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex

Oh, just shoot him already!

Hey!

Let him discover the beauty of épée in his own pace.

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

Let him discover the beauty of épée in his own pace.

Epee has no beauty, though

P.S. Does this make epeeists a bunch of bastards?

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by D'Art

Does this make epeeists a bunch of bastards?

Yes... and we killed Kenny.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Yes... and we killed Kenny.

Nice South Park reference!

Where's Inq to make his sabre-centric remark??? Boy's lagging!

[Inquartata]

A foilist and an epeeist were arguing over which came first, the foil or the epee. A sabre fencer came by and beheaded them both in a stoke. End of argument.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

The epee isnt a training tool. Its a game. Foil however, is a game in preparation for another game, that game being epee. At that, foil is a fun game, so it becomes training for itself.

Wrong. You don't have to believe me. Read the references. Look it up for yourself. Once you get past the denial stage, your eyes will open to the truth.

Foil preceded epee by over 150 years. The foil was a training tool for the small sword. Epee was developed as a training tool. Epee is not a weapon. Epee was a training tool for the duelling sword. A point only weapon with the primary focus of non-lethal duels.

http://www.georgehernandez.com/xMart...des/Swords.htm

epee
The kind of sword in the epee category of OSF (the other categories are foil and sabre). The epee is the practice sword for the dueling sword. An epee blade/overall max is 90/110 cm = 35.4/43.3", 770 g = 1.7 pounds max, has a triangular cross section, is stiffer than a foil, and has a larger guard than a foil. The allowed target area is the entire body. Right of way rules apply to sabre and foil but not to epee. Simultaneous scores are allowed in epee but not in sabre and foil. While epee and foil allow only thrusts, the sabre also allows cuts.

foil
Aka le fleuret in French. The kind of sword in the foil category of OSF (the other categories are epee and sabre). The foil is the practice sword for the small sword. A foil blade/overall max is 90/110 cm = 35.4/43.3", 500 g = 1.1 pounds max, has a rectangular cross section, and has a tiny little guard. The allowed target area is the torso only. Right of way rules apply to sabre and foil but not to epee. Simultaneous scores are allowed in epee but not in sabre and foil. While epee and foil allow only thrusts, the sabre also allows cuts.

[noodle]

america is a bastard child of europe but its still kickass

such is epee

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Wrong. You don't have to believe me. Read the references. Look it up for yourself. Once you get past the denial stage, your eyes will open to the truth.

Foil preceded epee by over 150 years. The foil was a training tool for the small sword. Epee was developed as a training tool. Epee is not a weapon. Epee was a training tool for the duelling sword. A point only weapon with the primary focus of non-lethal duels.

Who is that george hernandez guy you reference too? What makes him right?

[Inquartata]

I've never heard of him either, but FWIW what he says accords generally with what I've read elsewhere: the modern foil was invented as a practice tool for the smallsword, not the epee.

Think of foil and epee the way we do of hominids: there is more than one "line", not everything is necessarily descended from one common ancestor...

[needle]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Foil preceded epee by over 150 years. The foil was a training tool for the small sword. Epee was developed as a training tool. Epee is not a weapon. Epee was a training tool for the duelling sword. A point only weapon with the primary focus of non-lethal duels.

Wooden sword as a training tool for real swords precedes foil by couple thousand years. Long live wooden swords?
I'm sorry to break it to you, but the points you are trying to make are irrelevant to the nature of the differences between these weapons.
Foil as a sport evolved into "let's compete to see who follows the proper training routine (ROW) better", whereas epee evolved into "let's fence a safe duel (well, series of duels) to see who's more likely to win if we did it for real". And don't even get me started on saber - until they actually start fencing while on horseback, that thing is as reallistic as a tooth fairy in a nursing home

It's about sport reflecting reality, not about which weapon is older. And if for you it actually is about the oldest weapon, go swing a club or something

[noodle]

oh, i forgot. i was going to make a point and i got sidetracked.

point is: who cares? does this change anything? i, for one, will still fence epee whether epee came first or if foil came first.