Épeé: Bastard Child of Foil.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by needle

Would a MODERN flexible foil blade CONSISTENTLY penetrate the body to reach the heart?

I'm betting that my FIE foil blade would have no problem consistently reaching something vital.

Probably not, it might in at most 50% cases.

Do you have evidence to support this?

Would epee? Yes, in majority of cases.

Not if the primary target is the arm. You may hit a vital artery in 20-30% of the hits (purely conjecture, anybody have better data?). You may land a cripping blow, but a lethal hit? Assuming infection doesn't set in, it's unlikely.

And even if we take extreme cases of scoring points with foil and epee - would stop-hit to the arm do more damage than flick to the back? (don't think too hard, the answer is yes).

Well, let's take the extreme case in both weapons then. Which will cause more damage? An epee counter flick to the forearm or a foil flick to the back? Which is more likely to cause the most damage? I don't think either of us can determine that.

I remember reading about when someone played around with a foil flick and ballistic gel a couple years back (I'll see if I can find the information), he found that even the flick easily penetrated 2-3 inches, so yes, a flick can do a fair amount of damage.

I can almost guarantee you that my first attack (competitively OR in a duel) will not be a flick to the back or even the shoulder. It makes a good opening feint to see how they react though.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Essybaby

Many people seem to be laboring under the false impression that foil is merely a training tool for épeé.

Where did you get this idea?

Your initial premise is simply not true.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Where did you get this idea?

Your initial premise is simply not true.

It's a constant 'tongue-in-cheek' response. There are, however, those who don't know that it's 'tongue-in-cheek'. I'm merely making sure that the myth doesn't perpetuate.

[Mr Epee]

So you're throwing a hissy thread to combat what you believe to be a common tongue-in-cheek response, because you suspect that some people may be too dumb to figure this out for themselves?

Wow... just wow...

Can you please show us where you found this "constant 'tongue-in-cheek' response"?

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

So you're throwing a hissy thread to combat what you believe to be a common tongue-in-cheek response, because you suspect that some people may be too dumb to figure this out for themselves?

Wow... just wow...

Can you please show us where this a "constant 'tongue-in-cheek' response"?

Hissy-thread? Hmmm... seems like it's difficult to please you (unless of course, someone is throwing rep points your way). You complain about non-fencing related posts. You complain about fencing-related posts. Perhaps you should start your OWN fencing board where you can have complete control over what you deem as suitable discussion material. Then you can make sure that you are the only one to receive rep points and can post ridiculous comments to people wrapped in the veil of anonymity that you found a little TOO comfortable.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Can you please show us where you found this "constant 'tongue-in-cheek' response"?

Oh sorry, forgot about this part.

I'll do my best. I have some other things I have to get done today though...

[Mr Epee]

Why are you so angry about how "cool" other people are?

I thought defending the right of dissent was a trademark of liberal/progressive thinking.

You are not who you think you are.
--------

Edit: And answer the question, Bub!
All that blustering, and you still don't have a leg to stand on.
We look forward to the justification of your hissy-thread.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Why are you so angry about how "cool" other people are?

Not angry at all, but you are right. I have been bringing that up too much. Consider this the last lashing out about that episode.

I thought defending the right of dissent was a trademark of liberal/progressive thinking.

A trademark perhaps, but not the only one. You have a right to dissent, I have the right to dissent to your dissent. A right that you frequently and condescendingly attempt to rescind.

You are not who you think you are.

I'm exactly who I think I am. You don't know me, I don't know you. To try to defer anyone's complete character and person from even a few thousand posts over a few years would lead to completely and utterly ridiculous assertions.

Edit: And answer the question, Bub!
All that blustering, and you still don't have a leg to stand on.
We look forward to the justification of your hissy-thread.[/quote]

[Mr Epee]

Which begs the question:

What is it that you think you are trying to hide?

[Li'l Bebe]

I just think foil's a lot faster paced and more fun than epee. Epee, you just kind of stand there, bobbing at someone until someone decides to maybe go for the attack.....few minutes later, they try again.....zzzzzzzzzzz...... It's just hard to get much of an adrenaline rush just bouncing at each other. (Plus I'm really short, so maybe that has to do with it)

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Which begs the question:

What is it that you think you are trying to hide?

Absolutely nothing. I'm not sure why the question was begged.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Li'l Bebe

I just think foil's a lot faster paced and more fun than epee. Epee, you just kind of stand there, bobbing at someone until someone decides to maybe go for the attack.....few minutes later, they try again.....zzzzzzzzzzz...... It's just hard to get much of an adrenaline rush just bouncing at each other. (Plus I'm really short, so maybe that has to do with it)

Watching epee is an aquired taste. While it may look like the two of them are doign nothing more than bouncing back and forth, they are actually (hopefully) competing to get proper distance or trying to cause their opponent to over commit to a motion. A good epeeist is always trying to gain control of the tempo and motion of the bout, which is generally a pretty subtle thing (you don't want your opponent to realize that he's being set up for impalement.) I imagine that fencers in all three weapons are always trying to control the bout and set things up, epeeists just go about it in a different manner because of the different nature of our weapon.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

OK. Let's take it in another direction. If you had to duel, which would you use: A small, quick, but deadly foil or a large, clunky epee?

Neither, of course. I'd use a sabre, a real one, not the toys we use in fencing. And when my opponent thrust his foil at me I'd grab the ( very nonsharp ) blade with my left hand and take off his arm at the elbow. People have survived repeated runs through the body and limbs with real swords, and kept on fighting; but a split skull or lopped leg tends to be a stopper.

Forced to choose between those two, though, I'd take the epee, if only because it has a larger and more protective guard and the heavier blade can parry the lighter better and beat it more strongly. And its wound channel would be larger.

I once fought SCA using an epee against a complex-hilted schlager blade. That's about the same degree of disparity of weight and mass as between foil ad epee. On the first attempt to parry that epee blade bent about 85 degrees. I would not care to court the same result with a foil against an epee.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Compared to a foil, epees are big and clunky.

By this criterion, a knife is a better choice of duelling weapon than a foil. And a straightened-out staple is a better choice than a knife...

As for your quick counter to the wrist, any doctors here who can tell us what would really happen?

I am not a doctor, of course, but I believe you are right: few injuries will cause copious enough blood loss to stop a fight immediately. I recall the scene in one of Charles Bronson's movies, where he plays a hit man training a protege, and he clinically estimates, based on body weight, how long the protege's girlfriend, who has slashed her wrists, will likely take to bleed to death. I think it was over two hours.


Maybe the femoral or carotid arteries would suffice. I don't think the radials would.

A read of these might prove instructive to those who think that incapacitation with a sword is easy:

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.shtml

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

the foil is lighter and smaller and, as history has shown, the training tool for the deadliest duelling sword ever invented.

What is your evidence for this statement?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by needle

Would a MODERN flexible foil blade CONSISTENTLY penetrate the body to reach the heart? Probably not, it might in at most 50% cases.
Would epee? Yes, in majority of cases.

IMO yes, a foil could do that. Once the skin is penetrated there's little to resist a blade---any blade---unless you hit a bone. Which is as likely to happen with an epee as a foil.


Get a raw steak and sharpen a foil and check for yourself. That's all human bodies are, in essence: raw meat. Unless your name is Clark Kent...

[cfaustus]

*sigh*

as I have noted elsewhere, the foil (fleurette/fioretto) was the training sword for the smallsword. The opperative word there is TRAINING tool. (see my post earlier in this thread)

Progression: Smallsword -> baited smallsword -> fleurette -> fleurette practice becomes too essoteric -> epee du combat (dueling sword) developed using the later period smallsword blade as a model and to get away from the impracticalities introduced in foil play - the same sword could now be used for practice AND the serious encounter.

And regarding the comment about wrist shots: it was a practice to wrap the wrist with a scarf when using epees du combat (with pointes d'arret) in order to protect the blood vessels. It is also part of the reason the epee guard is so big - to protect the hand and the wrist immediately behind it.


Edited to remove material which was simply repeating something I said in an earlier post

If you want a nice tool to teach you basic blade work and allow you to safely and comfortably drill those actions at length with a partner, the foil is your friend. If however, you actually wish to use a smallsword, you will eventually have to actually pick up a baited one and drill with it to become accustom to the difference it has with the foil. Finally, if you want to have a training tool for both the salle and the dueling strip, either suffer the discomfort of training with baited smallswords or get an epee with a pointe d'arret.

[Ripostal Clerk]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Many people seem to be laboring under the false impression that foil is merely a training tool for épeé. I would just like to clarify that not only is this a falsity, it's a historical impossibility. The development of foil precedes the epee by nearly 200 years. Epee is clearly the bastard offshoot of the foil.

You seem to be unaware that the epee is the modern derivative of the smallsword. The fleuret (foil), as it is understood today, was originally the training tool for the smallsword.

Fencing as a sport can be traced back to the days of the Egyptians. Modern Olympic style fencing's roots, however, are firmly embedded in the development of the rapier and its descendants.

Actually, "Modern Olympic style" fencing owes far more to the smallsword, and its corresponding method of use (Escrime Francais).

In the 1500s the rapier (Spada da Lato a Striscia in Italian) began to increase in popularity throughout much of Europe.

Hold on there. Lose the modern museum curator's terms--"spada da lato a striscia" and whatnot. They aren't historically viable.

If you asked a 16th century bravo (sword-wielding street thug) what his weapon was, he'd simply call it a spada (sword).

A refinement of the side sword (Spada da Lato) which helped bring dueling to civilian life, the rapier may owe it's name to the Spanish term espada de ropiera ("robe sword" Frenchified to rapiere and then Britishized to rapier). The use of the rapier required skill and finesse and allowed for elaborate attacks and defenses and heavily favored the thrust over the cut. Predominant in the rapier period was the use of parrying devices such as cloaks, bucklers and even specialized daggers. This saw the rise of several fencing schools that trained in techniques that utilized the quick and agile rapier. Dueling became a favorite past time of many and at one point had a greater body count than warfare.

Prove it.

What killed more people--the Renaissance-era rapier, or the Roman legionary's gladius? I'd be willing to bet hard cash on the latter...

Rapier masters used smaller lighter versions of rapiers for training. It is important to note that rapiers were double-edged, pointed weapons used predominantly for thrusting. Smaller, lighter versions of rapiers were used for training, these weapons had been made safer by dulling the edge and 'foiling' the tip (turning it down). These practice rapiers bear little resemblance to the modern foil with its forte and thrust only use.

Precisely.

That is why we shouldn't confuse the two.

Through refinements to make them lighter and faster while retaining the ability to parry with the blade, rapiers eventually became thrusting only weapons with the lower portion of the blade (forte) being edged only to discourage the opponent from grabbing the blade.

A couple of problems with what you say above.

For one thing, even very late Spanish cup-hilt rapiers retained cutting edges, and the esgrimadors who used these weapons still employed the cut (source: Domenico Angelo's School of Fencing, 1763).

Secondly, the forte of any sword is typically blunt, because that is what you parry with.

Eventually (1700s to mid 1700s), the small sword began to see increased use as a dueling sword. A smaller and lighter version of the rapier, the small sword (also known as a court sword) was characterized by a less elaborate guard, a stiff triangular colichemarde blade (forte portion of modern weapons) allowing parrying of heavier weapons ,