Épeé: Bastard Child of Foil.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Have At You

But you would be correct now: foil is the training weapon for foil.

And Epee is the training tool for epee.

OK. Let's take it in another direction. If you had to duel, which would you use: A small, quick, but deadly foil or a large, clunky epee? Who do you think would win the duel? An epeeist or a foilist?

I recently fenced in a for fun epee tournament (I had to use my left hand). The first thing I had to correct, because I have never fenced epee, is that my initial instinct was, of course, to go for a torso hit. The counterattacks to my arm were quicker, but I still hit regardless. If we were using pointed weapons, I may very well have ended up with some serious gouges to my forearm, bicep and possibly thigh. My opponent, would, however, have ended up with about 3-6 inches of steel piercing his/her chest cavity. This is a purely hypothetical situation of course. I never expect to have to fight a duel, I don't train to fight a duel and neither do most of the epeeist I have seen fence, 'cause if they were, I suspect they'd try for something more than a quick counterattack to the wrist...

For the record, I use the foil as a training tool for the foil. I will never fence with a sharp sword. So, at least in my respect, you are absolutely correct.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Epees are clunky? Dude, you must suck, or you've never gotten off your *** long enough to watch good epee. A quick counter to the wrist would stop your attack in real life, especially if it actually pierced your wrist. You'd die from blood loss very quickly, like the guy from that monty python skit.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

On another note, nobody cares if foil is the training weapon for foil or epee or whatever crap you are in inclined to preach. People don't generally sport fence to learn self defense, they do it because its fun. I like epee for its simplicity in the rules, truth in result, and rich psychological game.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Epees are clunky?

Compared to a foil, epees are big and clunky.

Dude, you must suck, or you've never gotten off your *** long enough to watch good epee.

You've got me there.

A quick counter to the wrist would stop your attack in real life, especially if it actually pierced your wrist. You'd die from blood loss very quickly, like the guy from that monty python skit.

That's complete crap, backed up by a comedic skit...

As for your quick counter to the wrist, any doctors here who can tell us what would really happen? What would be a sufficient 'quick counter' to stop a foil already in progress from piercing the torso? Isn't there a certain amount of momentum involved? What's the likelihood of the epee piercing a major artery? Seems to be pretty small. Again, an arm wound is significantly less lethal when compared to a sucking chest wound.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Compared to a foil, epees are big and clunky.



You've got me there.



That's complete crap, backed up by a comedic skit...

As for your quick counter to the wrist, any doctors here who can tell us what would really happen? What would be a sufficient 'quick counter' to stop a foil already in progress from piercing the torso? Isn't there a certain amount of momentum involved? What's the likelihood of the epee piercing a major artery? Seems to be pretty small. Again, an arm wound is significantly less lethal when compared to a sucking chest wound.

Who cares, they aren't real swords, its a game. Join ARMA or the SCA or start LARPing. I think you'll find yourself well suited to the mentality.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

OK. Let's take it in another direction. If you had to duel, which would you use: A small, quick, but deadly foil or a large, clunky epee? Who do you think would win the duel? An epeeist or a foilist?

The epeeist would kill you while you were politely using ROW.

[Black Jeebus]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

LARPing

I don't have much experience with LARPs but isn't one of the cardinal rules of LARPing, nothing even resembling real weapons. The LARPs I have seen in place of weapons all the people had little index cards with "GUN" or "SWORD" or "KNIFE" written on them.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Yeah, they get a kick from beating the **** of each other with what are basically nerf swords.

[Christopher J Umbs]

From, Gauglers summary of Renaud's 1911 L'escrime

"Foil fencing, he states, is decadent while epee fencing represents a rebirth of genuine swordplay"

"For he warns that one lesson or conventional assault with the foil is enough to cause an epee fencer to lose the benefit of ten lessons or assaults with the epee"

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

The epeeist would kill you while you were politely using ROW.

I want to clarify in saying that yes I am aware that ROW was created to reduce the chances of both people killing each other. That doesn’t mean it happened all the time, nor should you discount the inherent unfairness in one person playing by set rules and the other not.

The truth of the matter is I would be more likely put my money on the person that grew up in an environment where they learned to defend themselves and fully recognized that a fight to the death means you fight differently than when you sport fence.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

The truth of the matter is I would be more likely put my money on the person that grew up in an environment where they learned to defend themselves and fully recognized that a fight to the death means you fight differently than when you sport fence.

I think Fencergrl has an excellent point here. While techniques and tactics from both foil and epee could be very useful in a duel, state of mind is also HUGE. The fight would in all likely go to whichever person first got over the immense and well justified fear of having three feet of sharp steel being pointed at them.

[esskreemr]

I agree. The discussion is purely academic. None of us are likely to be in a sword fight. I am first and foremost a sport fencer.

A real combat situation is definitely a completely different situation. When blades are used, short or long, pointed or edged, someone (probably both) is going to bleed. Some people shut down when they see blood, others will most likely rise the occassion.

[Orangeaholic]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

And Epee is the training tool for epee.

OK. Let's take it in another direction. If you had to duel, which would you use: A small, quick, but deadly foil or a large, clunky epee? Who do you think would win the duel? An epeeist or a foilist?

I recently fenced in a for fun epee tournament (I had to use my left hand). The first thing I had to correct, because I have never fenced epee, is that my initial instinct was, of course, to go for a torso hit. The counterattacks to my arm were quicker, but I still hit regardless. If we were using pointed weapons, I may very well have ended up with some serious gouges to my forearm, bicep and possibly thigh. My opponent, would, however, have ended up with about 3-6 inches of steel piercing his/her chest cavity. This is a purely hypothetical situation of course. I never expect to have to fight a duel, I don't train to fight a duel and neither do most of the epeeist I have seen fence, 'cause if they were, I suspect they'd try for something more than a quick counterattack to the wrist...

For the record, I use the foil as a training tool for the foil. I will never fence with a sharp sword. So, at least in my respect, you are absolutely correct.

How would you like my clunky epee lodged in your eye? Foil is as i like to refer to it "baby epee" in size. I'm not saying it's not hard or anything, but thats what it looks like. I know i haven't posted on fencing.net for awhile becuase of lack of time, but whats up with all these epee hater threads?

Lauren

[nyacfencing]

I find it interesting that everybody is focused on the shapes/weight of the weapons and the modern style of using them, and not on the rules that have evolved around them. I think analyzing the reasons and evolution behind ROW and torso-only target area in foil vs. first-touch landed (FTL?) and full-body target area in epee would reveal a lot more about the history of these two events.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs

From, Gauglers summary of Renaud's 1911 L'escrime

"Foil fencing, he states, is decadent while epee fencing represents a rebirth of genuine swordplay"

"For he warns that one lesson or conventional assault with the foil is enough to cause an epee fencer to lose the benefit of ten lessons or assaults with the epee"

Of course, foil and epee back then have little similarities to the two weapons we have today in the way they're fenced.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Orangeaholic

How would you like my clunky epee lodged in your eye? Foil is as i like to refer to it "baby epee" in size.

Which will kill you quicker? A foil through the heart or an epee through the heart (or forearm, but that's irrelevant to this point)? The answer is that either one will cause a lethal hit. The difference is that the foil is lighter and smaller and, as history has shown, the training tool for the deadliest duelling sword ever invented.

I'm not saying it's not hard or anything, but thats what it looks like.

So you're not saying it, but you're implying it? Same thing.

I know i haven't posted on fencing.net for awhile becuase of lack of time, but whats up with all these epee hater threads?

Lauren

Not epee hater threads. The 'bastard child of foil' was mostly to grab attention. Unfortunately, epeeist seem to love to denigrate foil, but can't seem to handle any criticism of their chosen weapon.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Not epee hater threads. The 'bastard child of foil' was mostly to grab attention. Unfortunately, epeeist seem to love to denigrate foil, but can't seem to handle any criticism of their chosen weapon.

Well DUH! What exactly is your point? If you think epee is easy, perhaps you should try it.

On another tangent, you don't have much room to talk, considering that you've been fencing for 13 years and your low rating isn't even current year. Quit argueing on the board and quit losing so much.

[Pauli]

Originally Posted by noodle

america is a bastard child of europe but its still kickass

Now lets start talking and referencing history......wow, what a cool thread this is going to be.
The resume to be sent to Georgy Boy - for the matter the tread finishes before his term does.

[needle]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Which will kill you quicker? A foil through the heart or an epee through the heart (or forearm, but that's irrelevant to this point)?

Would a MODERN flexible foil blade CONSISTENTLY penetrate the body to reach the heart? Probably not, it might in at most 50% cases.
Would epee? Yes, in majority of cases.

And even if we take extreme cases of scoring points with foil and epee - would stop-hit to the arm do more damage than flick to the back? (don't think too hard, the answer is yes).