Worst Fencing Injury

[schlager7]

I thought the blade break in By the Sword entered the fencer's leg. Now, in Ring of Steel, they duplicate the Smirnov incident, with the broken blade entering mask.

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by Purple Fencer:
<strong>

The first time I sparred with Freewind in sabre, he went for a flank cut and went a touch low...the stripe on my butt took a week to fade! OUCH!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

That Freewind just loves to put permanent markings on people!

[D'Artagnan1673]

Yeah, you are right. I was typing one thing and thinking another. Not a good thing.

[Maestro]

To be perfectly honest, I enjoy the war wound that I have from fencing... It gives me something tangent, something mortal. Maybe I am just sick but heck I love it. Its my "red badge of courage" and I am sure that many of you feel the same. As for the death of smirov (sp) it wouldn't prevent me from fencing at all. That happened just before I got into the sport but still it wouldn't have stopped me. Its a passion that cannot be explained, I have a tatoo that says live by the sword die by the sword, for me its the only way to go. No if I were a world champion then I probably wouldn't want to leave the world that soon or that young. So I understand the issue at hand still to die doing what you love,,, not many people can say that... Not many at all

[Catlady]

Yeah, the Smirnov thing doesn't really scare me. I had been into fencing for a while before I heard the story, although the event itself happened a long time before I started fencing(1980? and I started fencing in '98). Really the case with Smirnov is three or four rare events all combining. First the blade breaks, and yes blades are tempermental creatures, but it's not as if breaking a blade is an every day occurance, then his opponent couldn't pull the blow, or deflect it in any way. I guess maybe actions are more forceful at that level of competition, but most blade breaks I've seen happen, in my admittedly limited, are noticed before contact and the fencer in question has been able to stop or at least slow down. Third, is the fact that the mask gave when it was hit, safety standards were not as tough then--another reason to feel safer now--, but still it seems that unless fencing has changed drastically there were a lot of hits to the mask where the mask held up, then finally the broken blade wound up going somewhere where it could do really massive damage. Instead it possible it could have grazed his cheek I suppose, or hit above or below the eye, undoubtedly it would have done some serious damamge there too, but I don't know that the blade had enough momentum to break bone, let alone penetrate it. Of course if the blade had gone somewhere else it could have resulted in pretty bad injury, eg a punctured lung, but it also might have been less likely to be fatal, or instantly fatal. This is of course my opinion with limited experience, in both fencing and physiology. So any way, while I've been tempted to tell the story to remind people to wear their masks--yes, I know Smirnov was wearing a mask, but the point would be, in this case your mom's right, you can put someone's eye out with that thing--but the chances of it happening again seem pretty slim considering the series of things that would all have to go wrong.

There was a discussion on here awhile ago about the incident, I have no idea what the thread title was, that had a link to someone's personal account of what happened according to Michael Marx, who was at the competition but out of the room when the incident itself occurred--he walked back in to dead silence and asked what was wrong, as I recall-- although it's not on Michael's site, if he has one. It seems it was some Hawaiian club's site, but like I said I can't remember. The gist though, as far as I can remember, was that the opponent's blade broke, he had too much momentum to stop, the blade hit the mask and went through into Smirnov's eye. Naturally the opponent was stunned-- I feel bad enough when I hit too hard, I don't even want to think about what I'd do knowing I'd probably killed someone --, somehow Smirnov managed to remove his mask, and I imagine the blade with it, then fell on to the strip with all sorts of lovely bodily fluids leaking from his eye, never to regain consciousness again. As someone said, he technically lived nine more days, but I doubt he was really "with us" at that point. There's a lot of debate--okay maybe not a lot, but I'm interested in medical stuff so I perceive it as a lot-- on exactly how much a comatose person is aware of--those who have recovered say they were at least somewhat aware of what was happening to them, but that's those who recovered, so they weren't in as bad a shape as Smirnov would have been--but since I doubt he was responsive in any significant way--again, there's different levels of responsiveness ranging from being able to respond to commands, to flinching away from pain, to basic reflexes still work, sorry it's my medical fascination again, anyhoo he probably wasn't aware of much if anything.As further proof of my sick interest in all things medical, on hearing the story I thought, "well, they shouldn't have pulled the blade out". I doubt it would have helped in this case, but just in general, if you wind up with a something stuck in some part of your anatomy, go to the hospital and let the people there get it out, otherwise, you might do more damage taking it out than it did going in. Of course, I've ignored my own advice, and removed a rather stubbornly imbedded, rusty nail from my own foot before, all together now, "oh how gross!", but that's also a whole other story.

As for Smirnov's opponent, I know that he did continue to fence after this incident, I don't know what occurred on the day of the incident, as far as carrying on with the competition. Though I'm sure everyone was in a collective state of shock.

As a side note, and another of my intellectual hobbies, Christopher Marlowe, contemporary of Shakespeare, poet, playwright, probable spy for the crown etc., died of a similar injury. The official account is that he got in an argument with someone over a bar tab, more or less, and he tried to stab them, they grabbed his hand and either accidentally or intentionally stabbed him in the eye. There's controversy on whether this was an assasination or not, but that's a whole other topic, about which I could go on forever. <img src="graemlins/freak2.gif" border="0" alt="[Freak]" />

[Shpaga]

Fencing is a weapon of war, no doubt. You can still get killed no matter how good the equipment:

blade breaks, and:

through the mask

under the bib

through the body cord hold all the way up to the underm and through the heart..

So in a way we are still (though extremely remotely) connected to the danger of dueling/war fighting. If one respects the sword, it's not likely you'd get injured.

In a way though, wouldn't it be great to die (I'm not saying dying is great, but everyone dies eventually) at age 80 or something, fencing, as opposed to dying in a hospital or something?

[The Red Feather]

Under the bell
Through the body-cord hole
Down the sleeve
Through the underarm protector
Through the skin
Between the ribs

Nothin' but heart.

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
<strong>For those of you who were fencing when Smirnov was pierced with the foil blade, some questions:

1. What was your reaction? Were you scared the same thing might happen to you?

2. Did the German fencer who killed Smirnov continue to compete at the tournament? Did he retire shortly afterwards?

3. How about the German and Russian teams? Did they continue to compete?

4. What was the atmosphere at the tournament after the incident?

I remember watching a cheasy sword movie called By the Sword where the protagonist performes a passata sotto, the blade breaks on the stomach; he brings the point up and it goes straight through the mask. Anyone else see that silly movie?</strong><hr></blockquote>


My reaction was, "Ooh...terrible incident."

Matthais Behr, who nailed the guy, went on to continue competing. Competed in the Olympics in 84, and now, his son, Dominick Behr, competes in the junior level (and has done relatively well in the senior level).

Both the german and russian teams managed to continue (obviously). Fencers from that era included Mathais Gey, and Harald Hein for Germany, and Romankov and Stankovich. Both are still involved in fencing. In fact, Stankovich came to the SF Bay Area several years back and coached. I took some lessons from him.

[Inquartata]

Eric, I've heard a story that Behr was thrown out of a subsequent competition for showing up wearing a T-shirt saying something like "I'm the one that killed Smirnov" or something of that sort. Do you know if there's any truth to that, or is it apocryphal?

[longs]

D'Art, I watched that movie for about 20 minutes and then turned it off. Awful.

[Gav]

Ring of Steel - what a terrible movie.

I've seen the occasional terrible injury. For my own - I was helping a friend of mine practice his re-enactment fencing. We were using blunt cavalry sabres. I was [stupidly I admit] only wearing one glove. I was tired and parried with my non-sword hand supporting my sword arm. My partners blade bounced of my blade and arced down and was sharp enough to give me a nice deep cut on my right hand. I now havea nice scar running from the base of my thumb to the bottom of my index finger. Good for 'compare the scars' games.

I also have a nice crater on my left shin from where I lunged onto my opponents toe hit. Didn't get the point either.

[Gav]

Oh yeah I nearly forgot. I know another re-enacter who lost 1/2 an eyebrow during a display. He continued with the show but it just goes to show what happens when you don't pay attention or have any protective gear on.

[Caithdein]

The guy who got me into fencing saw someone die at a practise once

old blade snapped on a lunge and deflected up under the mask and into the throat.

but as ppl have said as terrible as these incidents are they are rare and 99% of the time fencing is safe to do with a minimum amount of pain.

[135711]

my worst injury: fellow foilist wacked my leg [off target] and broke the skin, this was through the knickers, when i looked at the injury the mark was EXACTLY like the tip of the foil, it was incredible, I was sort of mad, but, realized that I hit them off target now and again also, and there's nothing you can do about it but keep practicing until you get it right. The worst I've "inflicked", was a thrust [see other thread] during a practice session with my former teacher/friend/whatever/and hit him right smack in the jewels part. He was completely nonplussed. Unmoved, it was sort of awesome, I really expected a better reaction, but there was nothing.

to d'art: i heard that the person who pierced schmirnof never fenced again.

Que Non est hodie cras mius aptus erit

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: 135711 ]</p>

[Sciurus Rex]

I'm still recovering from my worst fencing accident, but the doctor says I'm doing remarkably well. It happened about six months ago:

My opponent, a busty Scot with glowing amber eyes, caught me off guard as I noticed my shoe was untied. I had just lowered my weapon when she launched herself at me, point high. Well, the tip of her epee caught the edge of a rivet in my mask and popped free, flying to the ceiling where it richocheted off an lovely old Tiffany lamp, then back to the floor, and finally bouncing up into my groin where it broke through my protective cup and lodged in a rather personal little opening. THAT was fairly minor, however, compared with what she did with the remainder of the blade: In a move that spectators described as something akin to a flamingo scratching its head with its foot, she pulled the weapon back and poked it directly into my left ear. The point punctured my eardrum and related tissues, and proceeded down at a steep angle into my neck and chest cavity, where it slip harmlessly past my heart and exited body again between the third and fourth ribs. As I stood in dumbfounded admiration of her ineptitude, she began to withdraw the weapon ... much to my chagrin, as you might imagine. We quickly discussed the matter and I persuaded her to wait to retrieve her blade until after the emergency medical team arrived. She demanded a deposit, of course, which I fished out of my wallet posthaste. I had only a two-dollar bill, but it turns out that she was an avid collector of two-dollar bills, so it all worked out in the end.

The doctor said I may always walk with a limp. But he's not entirely sure.

[Zelda]

Rex, I think you have been imbibing too much Mango!

[schlager7]

From three weeks ago...
Check out the bottom photograph on this page
<a href="http://clfc.2itb.com/photo.html" target="_blank">The Unofficial Gulf Coast Division Site Photo Page </a>

[veeco]

Ouch... Do we know if the person wearing the mask is OK? It's kinda scary. The mask looks brand new too.

Is that blood that I see on the side of the mask?

[lochinvar]

veeco, if this photo is from the incident that I think it is, then the fencer who wore it is okay.

I received a PM a little while back from a friend who witnessed an accident in the Gulf Coast area; seems some epee was going on, and one fencer punched through the mask--and face--of the other fencer. It missed the eye, but entered the cheek below the eye and exited somewhere in the back (my friend didn't say where).

The mask shown would be consistent with such an accident. The injured fencer is okay, so I'm told, but my friend pretty badly shaken by it.

I can only imagine.

[D'Artagnan1673]

I got sent that picture a while ago. I fenced the person back on May 18 and saw his mask then. It looks new, but actually I would guess that it was several years old.

I really hope that this incident doesn't shake him up so bad that he doesn't fence again. He's really got a good attitude towards competing.