The American Voting Process

[esskreemr]

Before we decide to impose democracy on other 'less willing' countries....cough...Iraq...cough, we should take a look at our own continuously fallible system.

A commission has presented it's recommendations on improving the election process to President Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/....ap/index.html

• Congress should pass a law requiring voter-verifiable paper audit trails on all electronic voting machines.
  
• States should require voters to present photo IDs and offer free photo IDs to those who don't have drivers' licenses.
  
• All "legitimate domestic and international election observers" should be granted unrestricted access to the election process, within the rules of the election.
  
• News organizations should voluntarily refrain from projecting any presidential election results in any state until all polls have closed in all states but Alaska and Hawaii.
  
• States should establish uniform procedures for the counting of provisional ballots, which voters can use when there are questions about their registration.

I'm thinking the fourth isn't going to float without a threat from the FCC... even then...

[Slim]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Before we decide to impose democracy on other 'less willing' countries....cough...Iraq...cough, we should take a look at our own continuously fallible system.

A commission has presented it's recommendations on improving the election process to President Bush.



I'm thinking the fourth isn't going to float without a threat from the FCC... even then...

#2 has been suggested many times before. Your buddies at the ACLU had something to say about that.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Slim

#2 has been suggested many times before. Your buddies at the ACLU had something to say about that.

I believe because it was instituted with a fee that basically amounted to a poll tax.

Funny how we can give Congress a yearly 5% raise costing millions, but can't fund a free voter id system...

[Inquartata]

Eh...the fact that cars, including American-made ones, occasionally break down, catch fire or blow up does not mean we should stop driving cars...or that other countries should eschew cars.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Eh...the fact that cars, including American-made ones, occasionally break down, catch fire or blow up does not mean we should stop driving cars...or that other countries should eschew cars.

Um, the comparison doesn't really work. Because cars exist in a competitive market, companies won't make a perfect car. It's counterproductive.

Even though they won't make such a car, cars continually improve. Better technology, more reliable, better fuel efficiency, etc...

I see no problem with uprgrading our voting process. I doubt it could ever be made flawless, but efforts should be made to try.

[jeff]

There has been substantial coverage in the computer industry's technical journals about the voting systems proposed and used in the states, done by some extremely reputable computer scientists and security specialists - I think I've reported on this previously. Basically, they said the systems out now are horribly insecure, lack fundamental controls, and can definitely be gamed to steal elections. In close races it only takes a few lost or changed votes to get a "better" outcome.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Um, the comparison doesn't really work. Because cars exist in a competitive market, companies won't make a perfect car. It's counterproductive.

Even though they won't make such a car, cars continually improve. Better technology, more reliable, better fuel efficiency, etc...

I see no problem with uprgrading our voting process. I doubt it could ever be made flawless, but efforts should be made to try.

I agree with all of that. The analogy spoke to what I took to be Ess's thesis: that we shouldn't urge democracy on other nations until we have made our own sysmem perfect.

Before we decide to impose democracy on other 'less willing' countries....cough...Iraq...cough, we should take a look at our own continuously fallible system.

Since infallibility is beyond the scope of mortals, that effectively means that we will spend eternity "looking at our own" system and never have standing to spread it. It will always be "before". I'm not sure Ess took the time, in his eager rush to find yet another brickbat with which to club Bush, to consider the full implications of his statement. ( It would mean if followed that Japan would still be a military dictatorship, for example. )

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I agree with all of that. The analogy spoke to what I took to be Ess's thesis: that we shouldn't urge democracy on other nations until we have made our own sysmem perfect.

Well, perhaps Ess was just hoping that Bush would remember the bible, and pick out the board in his own eye, before pointing out the splinter in another's....

[Inquartata]

Hey, what makes you think that your average Christian lives his life according to the Bible? Much less a Christian politician?

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Hey, what makes you think that your average Christian lives his life according to the Bible? Much less a Christian politician?

Me? I don't think that...

I'm just saying, maybe Ess was thinking that Bush should be asking himself WWJD?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I think once I can vote, I'll vote libertarian... all this government sucks.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Before we decide to impose democracy on other 'less willing' countries....cough...Iraq...cough, we should take a look at our own continuously fallible system.

A commission has presented it's recommendations on improving the election process to President Bush.



I'm thinking the fourth isn't going to float without a threat from the FCC... even then...

I'd be really surprised if the fourth was to float at all, no matter how much some want it...

Although if the Republicans back that motion, I guess it could happen. It's scary to limit the press, though, even if it's in a small way.

[Araznal]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I think once I can vote, I'll vote libertarian... all this government sucks.

Ok, so you want depressions once every hundred years and a government that does nothing when disaster hits. Oh and every little thing you ever took for granted will also be taken away, like... oh I don't know... public education. We can all be like New Hampshire, who's roads are dangerous and public works are severely under-funded all because there's no state taxes.

I wish there was a big one of these so I can better express myself.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Araznal

Ok, so you want depressions once every hundred years and a government that does nothing when disaster hits. Oh and every little thing you ever took for granted will also be taken away, like... oh I don't know... public education. We can all be like New Hampshire, who's roads are dangerous and public works are severely under-funded all because there's no state taxes.

I wish there was a big one of these so I can better express myself.

The government does so much, yes, but its all inneffective. Government ways of fixing problems, have been, in the course of history, proven inneffective compared to individual solutions. People should learn how to fix their own problems, because the individual, who is dedicated to his situation, will make the better, more effective choice when it comes to getting things done. This individual problem solving is impossible when it has to wade through 20 miles of government bureaucratical bull****.

[Araznal]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

The government does so much, yes, but its all inneffective. Government ways of fixing problems, have been, in the course of history, proven inneffective compared to individual solutions. People should learn how to fix their own problems, because the individual, who is dedicated to his situation, will make the better, more effective choice when it comes to getting things done. This individual problem solving is impossible when it has to wade through 20 miles of government bureaucratical bull****.

You're absolutely right about the bureaucratical bull****. That is why the government can't do anything like it used to. One of the reasons I liked the New Deal was that the national government could work almost completely un-impeded (although it was treading in dangerous waters with presidential powers).

I think that there's too much apathy, though, for anything to be done locally. It's a shame that this kind of help can't happen on a smaller scale because that's the most effective way. But, people just don't care and that's why we need a strong (albeit an ineffective) government to help.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

The government does so much, yes, but its all inneffective. Government ways of fixing problems, have been, in the course of history, proven inneffective compared to individual solutions. People should learn how to fix their own problems, because the individual, who is dedicated to his situation, will make the better, more effective choice when it comes to getting things done. This individual problem solving is impossible when it has to wade through 20 miles of government bureaucratical bull****.

That's true. But it's also true that some problems, public roads being an obvious example, need government help to get done.

Also, without government, you end up with anarchy, which is never good. For example, New Orleans.

[Inquartata]

DFP, perhaps you meant "inefficient" rather than "ineffective"?

The government is effective at much of what it does, and it's hard to gauge whether a private solution would have a greater impact because in many areas there is not any history of private solutions to which to compare government performance. No one but governments have been to the moon, or regulated natural monopolies. No large-scale modern wars have been fought with private armies. Etc. But it's true that of the functions where comparisons are possible, public solutions have almost always been more wasteful of resources in the course of accomplishing a given goal.

[Araznal]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Also, without government, you end up with anarchy, which is never good. For example, New Orleans.

Uh... not sure about this. First, the news about the rape, murder, and other bad stuff in New Orleans is supposed to all be bull****.

I agree that anarchy is bad, but for different reasons. The most important is the mob mentality that takes over. During the protests against Vietnam, my father saw this first hand. Imagine the effect of peer pressure, mulitiplied by a million. People forget rationality and go "**** crazy".

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The government is for building roads, and killing people who want to kill us. Less taxes, and less public assistance should, ideally, make people help themselves. I become morally distraught when it comes to the subject of starving babies. But its not right that we should educate every child the same. You cant deliver an individual education to 30 kids at a time. You throw material at them, and hope that a few of them, the ones that are born optimal for that teaching, catch it. Everyone else, even if they're smart as all hell, those who dont learn the same way, lose. In the end, you have 1/4 of your society, the ones whos minds were suitable for learning in that environment, leading our society, and you have 3/4 of our society working at mcdonalds, because the government is so bureaucratical, and centered on "fairness" that these kids dont learn anything. If we fixed the problem of uneducated people, we wouldnt have starving children, and we wouldnt have people buying cheetos with their food stamps.

Problem solved, everyone is happy, more money for you, and people can learn the way that is right for them.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Araznal

Uh... not sure about this. First, the news about the rape, murder, and other bad stuff in New Orleans is supposed to all be bull****.

I agree that anarchy is bad, but for different reasons. The most important is the mob mentality that takes over. During the protests against Vietnam, my father saw this first hand. Imagine the effect of peer pressure, mulitiplied by a million. People forget rationality and go "**** crazy".

That works, too.