An Armorers knowledge

[Morion]

The USFA site is running very slow right now so I don't have a specific example of what I am questioning, but it involves where an Armorer obtains their information. When I looked at the USFA sample test back before the site changed there was a question that ran something like "Which of these tips would not have parts that are interchangeable with the others?" Then listed a variety manufacturers. Is there a source of information that can be drawn upon to learn such things or is it simply a matter of experience and years as an apprentice?

[oiuyt]

Is there a source of information that can be drawn upon to learn such things or is it simply a matter of experience and years as an apprentice? :dunce:

USFA armorer's college.

Postings here on f.net.

Rudy Volkman's armoring manual.

I've seen at least 1 other armoring manual.

And, of course, the top two options, which you listed. Time and experience with needing to make things work is a great source of information. Want to know how reels work? Take apart and repair a number of reels a number of times. Having someone more experienced guiding this process is very useful and can definitely save time, expense, and errors, but much can be learned without that.

-B :)

[Purple Fencer]

In your area.....contact Dolly Donovan for some hands on...or watch someone like Donald, Dolly, Carl Oberg, Dan DeChaine, or even me work.

I learned a rgeat deal from Volkmann's book. Mergs is working one one that's just a LITTLE bit more comprehensive...it's closing on on 200 pages.

The best way, tho, is to get yer hands dirty on real gear. It took me over an hour to wire my first foil blade...now that I've been doing it for a few years it's 5 minuites...for someone like Tim, Donald, Ted Li, etc...it's probably less.

Armory isn't REALLY that difficult. The weapon circuits aren't that complicated, and many times the problem is a common one like a loose barrel. All it really takes is some patience and attention to detail.

And if I can do it....

Feel free to drop a line...any one of us will help out....it's what we do.








and btw..."ka-repair" won't work!!!

[Morion]

Well, Dolly has been working much overtime for the last year. I hardly ever see her anymore. I've been working on my own gear, but it is pretty uniform in design so I don't get any experience with other types of equipment. I just encountered a German tip for the first time this week when I told a friend I'd rewire his blade for him (and learned that a French wire won't work).

No Ka-repair!?!? Rats I was hoping to become a "Faith-Armorer" and do repairs by the laying on of hands!

[Purple Fencer]

Well, Dolly has been working much overtime for the last year. I hardly ever see her anymore. I've been working on my own gear, but it is pretty uniform in design so I don't get any experience with other types of equipment. I just encountered a German tip for the first time this week when I told a friend I'd rewire his blade for him (and learned that a French wire won't work).

No Ka-repair!?!? Rats I was hoping to become a "Faith-Armorer" and do repairs by the laying on of hands!

Hmmmm....I wonder if the Sword of Shadows is FIE or not......hmmmmm

You COULD try "ka-repair" but you might turn some poor guy into a redhead girl named Sonja.....

(fot those who are scratching their heads, don't worry....Morion knows what I mean!)

OK....back to the topic!

Was the blade you're workign on a foil or epee? Sounds like a foil....

[Morion]

It was foil as you surmised. What got me was that when I tried a french tip barrel it wouldn't work on that blade! The threads on the barrel were somewhat recessed and there was a "shoulder" on the tip of the blade that prevented the threads from engaging. No forge mark on the blade so I have no idea what make it is.

BTW it is a little odd to see you responding to my posts on this board and that other one. You must have too much time on your hands also!

[DHCJr]

The questions on the test are mostly either experience or understanding the rules. The latter would be something like the compatability between a blade and a tip. The problem with the former is there are so many manufacturers and even among the same manufacturer they change their products.

Take for example Uhlmann upright reels. I work on 3 different types of springs and how they connect to each other and the case. French Foil tips is another example. I carry 3 different screws based on which brand and year. Writing something specific would be obsolete before it was published.

If you could just pick up a book to pass the test, it wouldn't be much of a test as the job of Armorer is a hands-on.

Usually, Dolly and Yvonne take some of the fencers to LBI. If you can come. As I have said, there is a lot you can learn from the staff that will be there.

[Purple Fencer]

It was foil as you surmised. What got me was that when I tried a french tip barrel it wouldn't work on that blade! The threads on the barrel were somewhat recessed and there was a "shoulder" on the tip of the blade that prevented the threads from engaging. No forge mark on the blade so I have no idea what make it is.

BTW it is a little odd to see you responding to my posts on this board and that other one. You must have too much time on your hands also!

It's my day off! How about that Joe??

Re the barrel...the thread sizes on both epee and foil are standardized (in the rulebook...all metric, of course...3.5 x 0.6 for foil, 4.0 x 0.7 for epee), so what more likely happened was the top threads of the blade were smushed a little and the threads on the barrel couldn't catch on...I seeit frequently.

The shoulder on the tip is where you STOP cranking the barrel tight... otherwise you'll split it.

French and German tip designs ARE incompatible, however, in foil...wires, as well (differing diameters in the cups...the spring may not seat properly). Having your personal gear all the samea is a very good idea....but as you found out, when you start armoring other people's gear, you start seeing other stuff...same for a vendor who armors, like me.

It COULD be an StM blade....I got a few a month or so back that had no stamp, but I recognize the shape (very square at the back shoulder....plus I bought it from Fencing Post, and that's what I specified)

Also on the parts....all the German patterns are pretty much compatible...but a French point from Sport 7 and a French point from Prieur won't work well together...differing diameters in the barrel and tip, lengths of the screws, etc...

[Purple Fencer]

Usually, Dolly and Yvonne take some of the fencers to LBI. If you can come. As I have said, there is a lot you can learn from the staff that will be there.

I'll probably be vendoring at the collegite team event at ASU in January...if you can come by I'll be MORE than happy to show you how to fix your stuff...

[yeoldearmourer]

I carry Chris Green book on Armourey on my web site which is a good book nice illustared. www.yeoldearmourer.com
Chris Green as been a National armourer for 20 plus years. His book is well done. A book is nice to have but good old hands on beats anything eles. Chris , Donald Me, Dan Ted Joe didn't have books to go by. We learned the hard away. Sometime getting a reel spring in the face. What makes us different then the newer armourers unlike today NAC AND NaTionals where you have ten to fifteen reels as backup we may if luckly have 4 reels. Machine we may have one or two not 10. The old relay style of machines we had to fixed on the spot. to get it ready to go out again. That why we are good at what we do because we fully understand the whole picture of how the circuit work

[KD5MDK]

You COULD try "ka-repair" but you might turn some poor guy into a redhead girl named Sonja.....

And that's a problem?

[Purple Fencer]

And that's a problem?

Do you read the online comic, "The Wotch"?? If not, you won't get the reference or the joke...Morion and I both read it...he gets the reference!

[KD5MDK]

I'm just not sure the world in general is facing a shortage of redhead girls named Sonja. Or anything else, for that matter.

[Swordmaster]

Morion,
I have waited for a while before posting my opinion on you thread to see what would be said by the regular posters. Specifically with regard to the question about point part from different manufacturers being interchangeable, there are at least two places you can get this information, SHK (School of Hard Knocks) being experience which might take you years to accumulate or Armorer College in Colorado Springs, where this information which has been gathered for decades is condensed into a 1 week course of instruction by Dan Dechaine.
To my knowledge no one has yet to fail to become certified as an armorer of at least level 3 upon exiting this course. That certification will mean different things to different people and nothing to a great many. But to the person achieving that certification, it is a badge of accomplishment that they are proud to wear.
I started out as any other armorer, interested in how things work and willing to learn. Before I attended the Armorer College I had already been to Europe with the USFA Youth Team as their armorer, worked several tournaments up to and including sectional level events, and I had been the club armorer for two clubs in my area for several years. I can't tell you how much more information that I learned in that one week period of instruction. It was priceless.
I returned this past summer to Colorado Springs with my daughter who had expressed an interest in becoming a level 3 certified armorer. Needless to say it was good to get a refresher on what I had learned in 2002, but also I had put some more experiences under my belt and Dan told me that I would be testing for level 1. After a week of preparation I completed my written test in the allotted 3 hours (it took the entire time period) and missed one multiple choice question. The next day I was honored to sit as one of the jurors for the rest of the candidates, including my own daughter. After which I was then judged by three jurors in an hour long question and answer period. My close friend Rocky was one of these jurors along with Master Dan Dechaine (he is the recipient of that title from the Royal Association of Armorer of Great Britain) and Maestro Ed Richards.
When I stood before them I made this comment, "I feel like Frodo Baggins, having just received the One Ring from his uncle and not knowing yet that he can become invisible." What an awesome gift, but no knowledge of the power which it can wield. I know that it will take me several years complete the certification that I have earned. I have just started a journey and like Frodo have a very long way to go.

[Purple Fencer]

Dan, Ed, AND Rocky???? YIKES!!!!!! That's one high-powered exam board!!

So....did they give you that tape tearing test??

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

You really should decide if you're a performance armorer (armoring for better equipment functioning and to give you that little edge in a tournament) or a tournament armorer (helping stuff go along at a tournament). For a tournament armorer, it takes alot of knowledge of the rules and exact specifications, as well as repair knowledge. For a perfomance armorer, experience, a working knowledge of how the weapon works, knowing how to fix it, and what parts are the best, is all you need.

Experience is the key.

[Purple Fencer]

You really should decide if you're a performance armorer (armoring for better equipment functioning and to give you that little edge in a tournament) or a tournament armorer (helping stuff go along at a tournament). For a tournament armorer, it takes alot of knowledge of the rules and exact specifications, as well as repair knowledge. For a perfomance armorer, experience, a working knowledge of how the weapon works, knowing how to fix it, and what parts are the best, is all you need.

Experience is the key.

Respectfully disasgree....performance armorers almost always end up becoming tournament armorers at SOME level....sometimes the BC won't have an armorer on have and will ask someone they know who has some skills....Bingo....tourney armorer!!

And besides....knowing the rules helps the peformance armorer as well...

[Morion]

Thanks all! I guess I'll have to live with the School of Hard Knocks for now. I don't see me having enough funding for the Armorers college for a while. Although that could just be an issue of how much I want it. I'll just keep posting here until I start knowing the answers.