ROW thread

[Araznal]

Sick of seeing so many threads dedicated to only one simple question concerning ROW, I decided to make an all encompassing thread that can be used for any ROW question. There are a few rules, though, so it doesn't get too messy.

1)Only one question at a time
2)When the person who asked the question feels that their question has been answered, they say, "alright, I heard enough" and the discussion is officially OVER.
3)If you don't fence, coach, or direct in the weapon being talked about, please do not get involved in the discussion.

Since I don't have any questions right now, I'll open it up to whoever has any questions.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Wait - are we going to be talking about foil, sabre, or both?

[fencerontheline]

What about epee ROW, you maroons.....?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

What about epee ROW, you maroons.....?

I'll sum up EPEE ROW. If you got hit and his light went off, you didn't have it! See how easy that is. It's when you have this fake, low calorie artificial ROW that things get really ugly/messy/confusing/religious warfare esq sort of things. Hence why EPEE is the perfect weapon. Oh wait, that's a different thread...

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I'll sum up EPEE ROW. If you got hit and his light went off, you didn't have it! See how easy that is. It's when you have this fake, low calorie artificial ROW that things get really ugly/messy/confusing/religious warfare esq sort of things. Hence why EPEE is the perfect weapon. Oh wait, that's a different thread...

That's what you think now... but wait until the FIE comes out with new rules.

Don't fret, though - I'm sure they'll make epee a lot more interesting.

[mrbiggs]

I actually do have a ROW question.

Fencer A and Fencer B. Fencer A attacks, B parries. But on the riposte, B ducks, spins, or otherwise displaces target, thereby making it an automatic counterattack. A remises and hits at about the same time as B. Whose point?

[akaiyuki]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I actually do have a ROW question.

Fencer A and Fencer B. Fencer A attacks, B parries. But on the riposte, B ducks, spins, or otherwise displaces target, thereby making it an automatic counterattack. A remises and hits at about the same time as B. Whose point?

I'd say parry ripost arrives, touch to fencer B.

[noodle]

no such thing as an automatic counterattack. if you made a parry and made a direct riposte, it doesn't matter how far your butt is from the ground.

[ViewtifulMisho]

Sabre:

Fencer Brown establishes a line. Fencer Orange makes an attack without searching for the line. During this attack, Fencer Brown moves the line visibly but very slightly, while clearly aiming it at Fencer Orange's torso. Fencer Orange's attack lands, as does Fencer Brown's line (if it is still a line). Whose touch is it?

I'm of the camp that thinks that, unless the opponent searches for it, a line cannot, cannot, cannot be moved if it wishes to retain right of way.

But there is another camp that believes the line can be moved as long as it remains pointing at target area. I think that gives ridiculous amounts of advantage to the line, but some, not all, of the top fencers in the country see it that way, as well as some refs.

Unfortunately, I can't find an explicit statement in the rules that proves me right, which is sad because I would like to print it out and carry it in my knickers at all times.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

Sabre:

Fencer Brown establishes a line. ....
(cut for space, quoted for clarity)

it kind of depends on how much of a movement we're talking about, here. like, movement from high line to low line? or what? waving of the tip? or tip in place but movement of the hand?

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

Sabre:

Fencer Brown establishes a line. Fencer Orange makes an attack without searching for the line. During this attack, Fencer Brown moves the line visibly but very slightly, while clearly aiming it at Fencer Orange's torso. Fencer Orange's attack lands, as does Fencer Brown's line (if it is still a line). Whose touch is it?

I'm of the camp that thinks that, unless the opponent searches for it, a line cannot, cannot, cannot be moved if it wishes to retain right of way.

But there is another camp that believes the line can be moved as long as it remains pointing at target area. I think that gives ridiculous amounts of advantage to the line, but some, not all, of the top fencers in the country see it that way, as well as some refs.

Unfortunately, I can't find an explicit statement in the rules that proves me right, which is sad because I would like to print it out and carry it in my knickers at all times.

Currently, the rules interpretation for this action is very clear.

Any attempt to disengage when there is no search results in a loss of the line.

It's noted in the ref guidelines. Of course, you need to have a knowledgable ref to get this call (as with many calls), whether you carry the guidelines or not.

[KD5MDK]

He said a very slight movement. If the line remained straight, but the tip moved say, 1cm, I think it would be hard to say that should affect priority. Consider that PIL is explicitly permitted while advancing, retreating, etc, demanding that the line not move at all is excessive.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I actually do have a ROW question.

Fencer A and Fencer B. Fencer A attacks, B parries. But on the riposte, B ducks, spins, or otherwise displaces target, thereby making it an automatic counterattack. A remises and hits at about the same time as B. Whose point?

I would say it's a parry riposte.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I actually do have a ROW question.

Fencer A and Fencer B. Fencer A attacks, B parries. But on the riposte, B ducks, spins, or otherwise displaces target, thereby making it an automatic counterattack. A remises and hits at about the same time as B. Whose point?

You're mixing a lot of stuff in there. First, if someone "spins" while making a reposte, then that would be a yellow card for turning the back. So the reposte is invalid. If they duck or "otherwise displaces target" (whatever that means), then it's a valid reposte. If you meant "substitute target", then that would be a yellow card, and the reposte would again be invalid.

Other than that, if the reposte lands in time and is executed in a single fluid action, then it would be valid regardless of whatever else the fencer did that was not a rules violation.


.

[Zhi]

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

Sabre:

Fencer Brown establishes a line. Fencer Orange makes an attack without searching for the line. During this attack, Fencer Brown moves the line visibly but very slightly, while clearly aiming it at Fencer Orange's torso. Fencer Orange's attack lands, as does Fencer Brown's line (if it is still a line). Whose touch is it?

I'm of the camp that thinks that, unless the opponent searches for it, a line cannot, cannot, cannot be moved if it wishes to retain right of way.

But there is another camp that believes the line can be moved as long as it remains pointing at target area. I think that gives ridiculous amounts of advantage to the line, but some, not all, of the top fencers in the country see it that way, as well as some refs.

Unfortunately, I can't find an explicit statement in the rules that proves me right, which is sad because I would like to print it out and carry it in my knickers at all times.

When you make a Point in line and once you moved it you lose your right of way as my coach told me...

[Zhi]

In Sabre:
Is there any score if you hit your opponent first, then your feet made a cross over after that hit??

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Zhi

In Sabre:
Is there any score if you hit your opponent first, then your feet made a cross over after that hit??

i don't referee sabre at the same level as my foil or epee, however i'm pretty sure that halt is called for the hit, and as such anything after that is invalid.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

But on the riposte, B ducks, spins, or otherwise displaces target, thereby making it an automatic counterattack.

how can a "Fencing Expert" come up with this?

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

He said a very slight movement. If the line remained straight, but the tip moved say, 1cm, I think it would be hard to say that should affect priority. Consider that PIL is explicitly permitted while advancing, retreating, etc, demanding that the line not move at all is excessive.

I'm not demanding that the line not move 1mm, merely saying that if the fencer with line attempts to disengage, when there is no search, they lose line.

This is not open to debate (much like what defines 'threatening'), but clearly stated.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by downunder

how can a "Fencing Expert" come up with this?

Because the "fencing expert" designation just got a whole bunch of new people (~10) tagged based exclusively on reputation standing (followed a couple of days later by the reputation system being scrapped). There are experts and then there are "experts". Currently there isn't an explicit way of telling them apart. Be interesting to know if Craig has a means of rolling back the new designations other than either pulling status from those deemed not worthy, or pulling status from all and then redesignating those that had been hand selected originally.

Of course the old method of having read a number of posts by the author still works. :)

-B :)