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Puppet Master · 07-30-2002, 01:39 PM

The 2nd example still merits a warning (a verbal one will usually do) and the annulment of the hit.

I didn't think this was possible? Don't you have to card someone to annul a touch?

Except for falling are all of these rules recent fie rule changes?

[ 07-30-2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Puppet Master ]

epeemike81 · 07-30-2002, 03:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Puppet Master:
The 2nd example still merits a warning (a verbal one will usually do) and the annulment of the hit.

I didn't think this was possible? Don't you have to card someone to annul a touch?

Except for falling are all of these rules recent fie rule changes?<hr /></blockquote>There is a story that Jon Moss tells where one of the fencers on strip yelled out a swear... he said "Mr. suchnsuch you have a Yellow card." "for what sir??? you can't give a yellow card for ANYTHING I did!" "Hmmm.... you're right.... you have a group 3 red."

The point being that they are not going to argue the annulment.

-m

Shpaga · 07-30-2002, 03:43 PM

Hmmm.. well with Loit the ref. could have verbally warned him that he wouldn't tolerate not fencing, and that he would call unsportsmanlike conduct if Loit didn't fence. But that might be extreme....dunno...

135711 · 07-30-2002, 03:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:
There are several millisec between eye seeing the action, cognitive areas interpreting the need to call a halt, motor areas being activated and creating the speech command of "halt". In neuropsychology, this is call "reaction time" and depending on the task could last from 300 msec (0.3 sec) to a full second. That is why, the best rule is based on the facts at the time of completing the action (i.e.: fencer in or out of control when scoring the hit) rather than when the referee utters the phrase halt.<hr /></blockquote>next we'll be timing utterances.

darius · 07-30-2002, 07:14 PM

Nope, there's no need. You let the fencers sort it out, and only call halt when you're *SURE* something happened, whether it was the light, or the pass, or the corps-a-corps.

If the epeeist^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfencer complains about the hit being annulled, you tell them that the halt was with the pass, etc.

darius

Swordswrn · 07-30-2002, 10:43 PM

Darius,

Where are these policy changes listed?
Also:
"4. Div 1 NACs are open to fencers with classifications of A, B, or C by the entry deadline. The USFA classification chart has been modified and classifications may be given at all competitions that are conducted under the auspices of the USFA (including its Divisions and Sections) in accordance with USFA rules"
Does this mean that we can award ratings at high school competitions?

darius · 07-30-2002, 10:51 PM

The policy changes haven't made it to the USFencing site yet; they were just passed on to me by an FOC rep.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />The USFA classification chart has been modified and classifications may be given at all competitions that are conducted under the auspices of the USFA (including its Divisions and Sections) in accordance with USFA rules"<hr /></blockquote>Does this mean that we can award ratings at high school competitions?<hr /></blockquote>I suspect not -- I don't think anything in these extra procedures supersedes the Operations Manual which states that ratings cannot be awarded at age-group specific tournaments. However, I could be wrong. Does anybody know for certain?

darius

achilleus · 07-31-2002, 12:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
There is a story that Jon Moss tells where one of the fencers on strip yelled out a swear... he said "Mr. suchnsuch you have a Yellow card." "for what sir??? you can't give a yellow card for ANYTHING I did!" "Hmmm.... you're right.... you have a group 3 red."

The point being that they are not going to argue the annulment.

-m[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Refs that behave like that should not be officiating.

Gav · 07-31-2002, 04:38 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The 2nd example still merits a warning (a verbal one will usually do) and the annulment of the hit.

I didn't think this was possible? Don't you have to card someone to annul a touch?

Except for falling are all of these rules recent fie rule changes?
<hr /></blockquote>Puppet master. There is no hit to annul - I was being imprecise [sorry] I should've said "No hit". The halt is at the infraction and as this occurs before the hit is scored the hit didn't happen [whether the light came on or no]. The fact that this fencer has attempted their attack whilst not being in control is the offence and is potentially cardable. This last point, whether to card or not, has been the discussion. The president on-site would make the decision on whether a rule had been transgressed or not.

darius · 07-31-2002, 05:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Refs that behave like that should not be officiating.<hr /></blockquote>Jon Moss is a good ref.

When it comes down to it, the fencer *was* right in a way, it's hard to justify handing out a yellow card for swearing. However, a Group III red is perfectly acceptable under "Disturbing order on the strip." In this case, the ref was actually letting him off easy the first time -- if this happens to you, take the Yellow and don't friggin' swear anymore!

How do you define "disturbing order?" It's the referee's discretion. People do plenty of unsportsmanlike things, but you don't often see the black cards come out for "Offense against sportsmanship", do you?

The penalty rules leave plenty of leeway for the referee's discretion.

darius

achilleus · 07-31-2002, 11:42 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darius:
[quote]Jon Moss is a good ref.

When it comes down to it, the fencer *was* right in a way, it's hard to justify handing out a yellow card for swearing. However, a Group III red is perfectly acceptable under "Disturbing order on the strip." In this case, the ref was actually letting him off easy the first time -- if this happens to you, take the Yellow and don't friggin' swear anymore!

How do you define "disturbing order?" It's the referee's discretion. People do plenty of unsportsmanlike things, but you don't often see the black cards come out for "Offense against sportsmanship", do you?

The penalty rules leave plenty of leeway for the referee's discretion.

darius<hr /></blockquote>I won't go in to the fact that penalizing for swearing doesn't exist at the FIE level, and just say that Moss acted as bad if not worse than the fencer. If he was going to card him, then card him and cite the appropiate rule. Don't change just cause the fencer questioned you. It wasn't like Moss forgot that the disturbing order is a red. He intentionally gave the yellow because the offense wasn't worth a red. If it wasn't worth a red in the first place he should have done nothing, except maybe cautioned the fencer.

His behavior was childish and typical of so many refs who believe they are god on the strip.

Please note, I am not defending swearing loudly on the strip, only pointing out that the ref did not handle the situation well.

epeemike81 · 07-31-2002, 07:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by achilleus:
[quote]I won't go in to the fact that penalizing for swearing doesn't exist at the FIE level, and just say that Moss acted as bad if not worse than the fencer. If he was going to card him, then card him and cite the appropiate rule. Don't change just cause the fencer questioned you. It wasn't like Moss forgot that the disturbing order is a red. He intentionally gave the yellow because the offense wasn't worth a red. If it wasn't worth a red in the first place he should have done nothing, except maybe cautioned the fencer.

His behavior was childish and typical of so many refs who believe they are god on the strip.

Please note, I am not defending swearing loudly on the strip, only pointing out that the ref did not handle the situation well.<hr /></blockquote>Refs who blindly apply rules are bad refs. Take an example from baseball: technically, if the Ump thinks that a pitcher is throwing at a batter intentionally, it should be an immediate ejection. however, if one team is retaliating, the ref will overlook that one pitch and then warn both teams... they could not possibly make this a rule because it would justify throwing at players... however, it IS an unwritten rule. By the same token, Jon didn't want to give the group III as he thought it didn't warrant it, but couldn't let it go unpunished due to the precedent it would set. so, he gave the yellow. The fencer should have realized that it was red cardable and not said anything.

As for cards for swearing not being given, I think Jon, who is an international ref MIGHT disagree with you...

-m

achilleus · 07-31-2002, 08:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
[quote]Refs who blindly apply rules are bad refs.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed, but so are refs who give out penalties at whim, and not even the appropriate penalties at that. His behavior, from teh description above, was immature and not befitting of an offical.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Take an example from baseball: technically, if the Ump thinks that a pitcher is throwing at a batter intentionally, it should be an immediate ejection. however, if one team is retaliating, the ref will overlook that one pitch and then warn both teams... they could not possibly make this a rule because it would justify throwing at players... however, it IS an unwritten rule. By the same token, Jon didn't want to give the group III as he thought it didn't warrant it, but couldn't let it go unpunished due to the precedent it would set. so, he gave the yellow. The fencer should have realized that it was red cardable and not said anything.<hr /></blockquote>I am not suggesting he let it go. He should have either given a red, or merely approached the fencer and said, disturbing order on my strip is a red card, do so again, and I will have no choice but to penalize you. Problem solved in a way that doesn't atagonize the fencer, keeps the bout in control of the ref, and doesn't make the ref look like a jerk.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />As for cards for swearing not being given, I think Jon, who is an international ref MIGHT disagree with you...

-m<hr /></blockquote>He might disagree with me, but having been to a number of international tournaments, I would tell him he's wrong. There are certain rules that are only applied by US refs, that being one of them. Just like falling was (although no longer), and just like coaching also was.