french grip

[glowstix]

ok guys, i'm getting a new blade and i think i'm going to make the jump and get a french grip epee. i'm just intrigued by the possibility of the extra reach and point control. i know that i'll be using slightly different forearm muscles but i'll have to get used to it.

so, as far as technique or anything related goes, any advice??

[veeco]

Learn to hold it properly. Ask your coach or someone who's been using the French grip for a long time (and who's successful with it) show you. There are several ways to hold a French grip, and being able to switch from one to the other, while not a necessity is a real plus if you plan on having a varied game.

If you don't have enough strength in your arms, take some time to work out so you don't feel uncomfortable.

Get a good cant: in your case, since you're left handed, you should have quite a bit of cant down, and a little on the right, when you're looking at the weapon while you're holding it.

Finally, don't fool around, and don't switch back and forth between French and pistol. Give it a little time. You'll probably feel you're really really good with it in the beginning, but then after a while you'll feel your fencing has actually degraded. It's normal. You need about 4-6 months to get comfortable with it and feel you're fencing at the same level as before.

[yeoldearmourer]

I totally agree with veeco on giving it time and built up not only the arn stergth but you hand sterght as well. the only disadvantge to pommeling a french grip it easy to move the point out of the way if you don't have the proper grip on the handle. It's just take taining and time. If my 13 old daughter can pommel a frech grip epee no 5 blade so can you. But she practice with it and use a wall traget to gain point controlled and keep it. We hang a golf ball from the celling for her to aim at as well

[Tiwaz]

The above two posts are giving you some very good advice. One thing i would say is experiment with different types of set on the blade untill you find one that is is comfortable, the best way to do this is to try other people epees to get an idea of different variations then customise it further from there.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by veeco

Finally, don't fool around, and don't switch back and forth between French and pistol. Give it a little time. You'll probably feel you're really really good with it in the beginning, but then after a while you'll feel your fencing has actually degraded. It's normal. You need about 4-6 months to get comfortable with it and feel you're fencing at the same level as before.

i agree with this but the problem is the foil fencers who "fool around" with epee and when they do they don't use epee fencing technique, instead fencing foil with foil vocabulary. its been hard to deal with them without using a pistol. on the other hand, whenever i fence true epee fencers, i've liked the results so far when trying out the french grip.

as far as gripping goes, i've seen several types. i know the pommel should settle in the palm and point downward along the arm in a straight line as opposed to holding in the fingers. when i pommel, i have a tendency to extend my forefinger along the grip, actually "pointing" towards the target.

[swordsen]

Extending your finger along the side of the handle is great for point control. Unfortunetly, there is a big drawback to it too. A very hard take of the blad or (even worse) good hard bell to beel smacking can result in a severly jammed, twisted, or even broken finger. I speak from painfull experience here....

[JEC]

Originally Posted by glowstix

... the problem is the foil fencers who "fool around" with epee and when they do they don't use epee fencing technique, instead fencing foil with foil vocabulary. its been hard to deal with them without using a pistol ...

The reason is that foil fencers will parry your attacks or do a beat-attack, and this is the weakness of the french grip. You are giving out some blade strength for a greater reach. The key is while you're strengthing your forearm fencing with the french grip, try to just disengage or disengage and extend.

[howtobrew]

Beware of the typical Rubber French grips (blue or red) they are not rigid enough for good control. The leather wrapped are better, the rubber over aluminum are better still, and the best are the rubber over wood from Cartel Excrime. If you pommel, you don't want a lot of cant. If you are doing a full grip on it, then you will want more. Play with it, see what you like.

Also, don't let your index finger go past the first joint on the grip if you are looking for the power you had with pistol - Point control goes to hell.
Good luck!
HtB

[Mira]

Glowstix,
A posting/pommeling leftie is a pretty nasty combination in epee. Glad to hear that you're experimenting with the whole idea. Veeco's suggestion on a proper cant can't be stated enough - feeling comfortable with the grip will contribute to both your accuracy and willingness to stick with the style.
As a further suggestion, and not to line pockets of Peter or Gil over at PBT with silver, but finding the 'perfect' french grip will go a long ways. Not all of them are the same, obviously. PBT has a pretty sexy rubber over aluminum style grip (Item 'B' under the weapon/grip section) for 9.95, pre shipping. Also, you can experiment with different pommels. That same site has them in the variety of 150g, 120g and a kidz version weighing in at 75g. The cant and the pommel weight will affect the balance.
Oh, yeah, and customization isn't a bad idea. The main problem that I've dealt with is a lack of 'beefiness' concerning the grips. You'll develop your own feel for it, but as a suggestion I'd say experiment. I dissect my grips, strip off the rubber and coat the aluminum with a friction tape (basicially a tape which is sticky on both sides) until I feel it fits well in my hand. You can also control where the grip is thickest/thinnest using this method. I've seen a similar idea with a pourable rubber (hardware stores?) as well.
Good luck.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by JEC

The reason is that foil fencers will parry your attacks or do a beat-attack, and this is the weakness of the french grip. You are giving out some blade strength for a greater reach. The key is while you're strengthing your forearm fencing with the french grip, try to just disengage or disengage and extend.

Wouldn't an epeeist do this as well, knowing that the weakness of pommeling is blade attacks?

I ask because I've been told I fence epee somewhat like a foilist, and I'm trying to get that out of my game.

[JEC]

Certainly, it is part of the pistol grip epeeist strategy particularly if the french grip epeeist is pommeling. Make them uncomfortable beating the blade constantly. However, I was responding to the specific issue that glowstix was describing including his observations about his typical opponents.

Most epee fencers have their point toward the opponents forearm at the beginning of the action, whereas some foilists doing epee have been seen with their point still pointing to the ceiling at the beginning of the action. Their typical response to an advance would be: epeeists continue towards target (at least a double point), foilists have only one ingrained reaction PARRRRY with a riposte. If the Parry was successful, then they score a single light.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by JEC

If the Parry was successful, then they score a single light.

actually, luckily for me, their parries would generally be detached, so after they let go of my blade, i quickly remise and double them out...but sometimes they get away with some crazy stuff..

[veeco]

Actually, glowstix has it right. Fencing someone who plays a lot with their opponent's blade is fairly easy with a French grip, because it is a stereotypical situation that any French grip user will have experienced. The bout will be balanced between those who have control over the blade and those who try and evade it, and in a typical situation, the evading one will be successful most of the time.

Being successful against a French grip user means not giving them an opening: searching the blade is giving plenty of openings to evade, and thus to score.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Check out the french grips sold by alcazar fencing.

Heres my honest opinion about french grips: its all in your head.
The french grip forces you to rely more on distance, disengages and timing, and thats a weakness in alot of fencers, both in how they apply it, and how they defend against it. You can fence french with a pistol, the only thing you lack is the 2 extra inches. The disadvantages with a french are considerable though, you have a deficit in speed and leverage, and its a ***** to parry. If you play french "mentally" with a pistol grip, you can have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

If you play french "mentally" with a pistol grip, you can have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

that's the type of game i think i have though..

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by glowstix

that's the type of game i think i have though..

I agree. You also have the blade takes, and the parry's. You have an endless supply of cake. Why change?

The 2 extra inches didnt help you against your opponent in the round of 8, and the 2 extra inches that your opponent had in the round of 16 didnt save him from you.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I agree. You also have the blade takes, and the parry's. You have an endless supply of cake. Why change?

The 2 extra inches didnt help you against your opponent in the round of 8, and the 2 extra inches that your opponent had in the round of 16 didnt save him from you.

yeah, i know, but i'm just intrigued by the french and want to give it a try..

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Check out the french grips sold by alcazar fencing.

Heres my honest opinion about french grips: its all in your head.
The french grip forces you to rely more on distance, disengages and timing, and thats a weakness in alot of fencers, both in how they apply it, and how they defend against it. You can fence french with a pistol, the only thing you lack is the 2 extra inches. The disadvantages with a french are considerable though, you have a deficit in speed and leverage, and its a ***** to parry. If you play french "mentally" with a pistol grip, you can have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

Dude,

As a pistol grip using fencer, I gotta say you need to reelvaluate your opinion.

While it's true that one fence a similar game, it's important to note that the french grip has plenty of advantages over a pistol. It provides reach (which helps with timing and distance), and provides great angles and flexibility. Plus, when one needs strength, one can simply choke up to gain quite a bit more strength. Then again, some beasts, don't need to choke up to knock your blade aside and hit you. It's especially fearsome in the hands of tall, athletic, strong fencers like Jeannet, Milanoli, Srecki, etc...

There's a reason why it's still used by many top fencers. It's not for everybody, then again, neither is a pistol grip.

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

The 2 extra inches didnt help you against your opponent in the round of 8, and the 2 extra inches that your opponent had in the round of 16 didnt save him from you.

It's also important to note that to switch grips takes time. Someone above mentioned six months. I've some Olympians tell me it took them years before they felt truly at home with their new grip.

Switching between bouts proves nothing or noting head to head comparisons isn't an accurate scale of what works best.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Heres my honest opinion about french grips: its all in your head.

It may also partly be in your wrist - literally.

I recently purchased an epee with a French grip - primarily to see if it would help me to conceal my hand behind the bell guard better than a pistol grip does. (It does, a little.) What I am finding is that I have better point control with the French grip than I do with pistol grips. I can only surmise that having the pommel in my wrist gives me a tactile point of reference that tells my brain where the rest of the weapon is pointing. Yes, a well placed strong beat will disrupt my game, but if I know someone's going to play that game, I respond with denial of blade and simple derobes with counter-binds.

[howtobrew]

And as a Veteran, I quickly found that French didn't make my hand cramp like the pistol grip did. I can do French for a whole tournement without discomfort, but scarcely 2 pools with a pistol. Of course, this just may be me and a handful of others, but it's still a valid reason (for us).
Cheers,
HtB