Div II/III age question

[happy]

What are the rules for fencing in a Div III NAC if you are born after 1992? Or is it allowed?

[edew]

I think, if you're born after 1992, you need Junior National Points, I guess.

In order to have junior national points, you'd probably have had to have cadet national points to compete in the junior event. And in that case, you'd have to have Y14 points to compete in the cadet event.

Basically, that means you're good enough that you probably have a B or higher so you probably can't fence in the Div II/III event anyway!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Check the qualification path for cadet. If you cant fence cadet, you cant fence 2/3.

[Goofy]

On the entry form for the 2005-2006 NACs is shows that for Divisions I, II, and III the entrant's birth year must be '< or = to 1992'.

[foildad]

A fencer born in 1993 is eligible for cadet beginning with Summer Nationals in 2006, but they aren't eligible for Div 2/3 until the 2006-2007 season begins.

[happy]

I think I would follow edew's logic although the rule isn't spelled out anywhere - and that logic leads to the illogical conclusion he points out.

In my mind, it doesn't make sense because it isn't clear that Div II or III is necessarily 'higher' than Junior (or even Cadet for that matter) - in fact, it seems that Junior would be more competitive because it's not restricted by rating.

To be specific, in my case, I have a fencer born in 1993 who will be competing in Cadet (i.e., has Y14 points), and wondered if Div II or III was an option.

I guess by the strict interpretation of the rules, that would be no - but again, it doesn't make much sense. I didn't know if anybody else had run into this before.

[Goofy]

When in doubt, send a note to the USFA National Office:

info@USFencing.org

[KShan5[PrFC]]

In my mind, it doesn't make sense because it isn't clear that Div II or III is necessarily 'higher' than Junior (or even Cadet for that matter) - in fact, it seems that Junior would be more competitive because it's not restricted by rating.

div ii/iii is nowhere near the lever of competition that is junior or cadet fencing. Not even close.

[Chuck]

The following charts come directly from the 2004-2005 USFA Athlete Programs Handbook, Appendix A. I took last year's chart (for 2004-2005) in the Handbook and simply changed each year by one. Unless USFA changes the actual criteria, the following should be correct for 2005-2006.

After the Age Rules, there is a list of exceptions to the age eligibility criteria. Remember to change the years to accomodate the new fencing season if you use last year's Athlete's Handbook. Does anyone know if the new handbook has been published?

This first chart is for ALL USFA sanctioned competitions from August 1, 2005 to July 31, 2006, including Division qualifying competitions for the 2006 Junior Olympic Championships; EXCEPT for the 2006 Summer National Championships and Associated Division and Section qualifying competitions.

Category
Code
Birth Years
Restricted Classifications

Division I
DV1
1992 or earlier
A, B or C

Division II
DV2
1992 or earlier
C, D, E or U

Division III
DV3
1992 or earlier
D, E or U

Veteran
VET
1965 or earlier

Junior
U20
1986 - 1992

Cadet
U17
1989 - 1992

Youth 14
Y14
1991 - 1994

Youth 12
Y12
1993 - 1996

Youth 10
Y10
1995 - 1998

This second chart is for the 2006 Summer Nationals & Associated Division & Section Qualifying Competitions

Category
Code
Birth Years
Restricted Classifications

Division IA
D1A
1993 or earlier

Division I
DV1
1993 or earlier
A, B or C

Division II
DV2
1993 or earlier
C, D, E or U

Division III
DV3
1993 or earlier
D, E or U

Veteran 40 - 49
V40
9/2/56 - 1965

Veteran 50 - 59
V50
9/2/46 - 9/1/56

Veteran 60 plus
V60
9/1/46 or earlier

Junior
U19
1987 - 1993

Cadet
U16
1990 - 1993

Youth 14
Y14
1991 - 1994

Youth 12
Y12
1993 - 1996

Youth 10
Y10
1995 - 1998

[Black Jeebus]

I think I would follow edew's logic although the rule isn't spelled out anywhere - and that logic leads to the illogical conclusion he points out.

In my mind, it doesn't make sense because it isn't clear that Div II or III is necessarily 'higher' than Junior (or even Cadet for that matter) - in fact, it seems that Junior would be more competitive because it's not restricted by rating.

To be specific, in my case, I have a fencer born in 1993 who will be competing in Cadet (i.e., has Y14 points), and wondered if Div II or III was an option.

I guess by the strict interpretation of the rules, that would be no - but again, it doesn't make much sense. I didn't know if anybody else had run into this before.

What he's saying is that if the minimum age isn't met for Div II/III then you have to have Junior NATIONAL Points. If you have said Junior NATIONAL Points then you probably don't qualify for Div II/III because your Rating is probably too high.

[yeoldearmourer]

My daughter was 13 this year and was allow to fence Div 11 and Div 111 we but she also a d rated fencer and on the Nat point but the min I believe is 13 as the was the first year she could fence the events. even though she was a D rated last year she couldn't fence

[foildad]

This thread is getting way too complicated.

If you're young enough to still fence Y-12, then you are too young to fence Div 2/3. If you have aged out of Y-12, you are old enough to fence Div 2/3.

It's that simple. National points have nothing to do with it.

[oiuyt]

It's that simple. National points have nothing to do with it.

The reason why (junior) national points DO have something to do with it is that having junior national points allows one to compete in senior-level events, which includes Div I, II, III, and IA. As pointed out by EDew this USUALLY doesn't matter for D II/III as most people who have earned junior points as a 12 year old (a HIGHLY restricted set) have already earned at least a B.

-B :)

[happy]

If you're young enough to still fence Y-12, then you are too young to fence Div 2/3. If you have aged out of Y-12, you are old enough to fence Div 2/3.

It's that simple. National points have nothing to do with it.

Except you can fence in Div 2/3 if you're still in Y12 - at the Summer Nationals, is that right?

I think it is confusing that Div 2/3, which is less competitive than Cadet/Jr (I agree), has more strict age guidelines. If you can fence Cadet, you should be able to fence Div III at least - I would argue.

This is an important question (to me) because of the Miami NAC coming up that has Cadet, Div 2 and Div 3. The trip becomes much more worthwhile if there are three potential competitions.

Regardless, it looks like you're right, and Tim's experience confirms that - there isn't a 'points exception' for those classifications.

Which is strange, but there are far stranger things to ponder....

[Black Jeebus]

My daughter was 13 this year and was allow to fence Div 11 and Div 111 we but she also a d rated fencer and on the Nat point but the min I believe is 13 as the was the first year she could fence the events. even though she was a D rated last year she couldn't fence

It's my understanding there is a minimum points requirement, which again given the highly competitive nature of all the youth events these days if you have a high enough number of national junior (or cadet or whatever) points to fence in senior NACs then you most likely will be a B or above. I haven't read into this since the year I first started but only a few years later I want to say that it's not going to have changed very much (although they changed foil in the time that I have been fencing ).

[Saber-Psycho]

This thread is getting way too complicated.

If you're young enough to still fence Y-12, then you are too young to fence Div 2/3. If you have aged out of Y-12, you are old enough to fence Div 2/3.

It's that simple. National points have nothing to do with it.

A fencer born in 1993 either has to be on the Junior National Point list or they may not fence in Div 2-3. The reason they may fence Div 2-3 at Summer Nationals is because for that event they are in the older age group. For Youth events Summer Nationals is the final meet of the season, for Cadet and above it is the first event of the season.
A young fencer has to work their way up to fence in the more advanced events. I know one fencer who didn't fence Y12 her last time at Summer nationals but fenced Division 1 instead.
Our division has had a couple kids who were very young but could fence oodles of events due to their standings on the junior point list.

[Mo]

This thread is getting way too complicated.

If you're young enough to still fence Y-12, then you are too young to fence Div 2/3. If you have aged out of Y-12, you are old enough to fence Div 2/3.

It's that simple. National points have nothing to do with it.

A fencer born in 1993 either has to be on the Junior National Point list or they may not fence in Div 2-3. The reason they may fence Div 2-3 at Summer Nationals is because for that event they are in the older age group. For Youth events Summer Nationals is the final meet of the season, for Cadet and above it is the first event of the season.
A young fencer has to work their way up to fence in the more advanced events. I know one fencer who didn't fence Y12 her last time at Summer nationals but fenced Division 1 instead.
Our division has had a couple kids who were very young but could fence oodles of events due to their standings on the junior point list.

[mrbiggs]

I think it is confusing that Div 2/3, which is less competitive than Cadet/Jr (I agree), has more strict age guidelines. If you can fence Cadet, you should be able to fence Div III at least - I would argue.

Yeah, but that would add alot of fencers to Div III, and Cadet fencers already have two events they can enter (Junior and Cadet.)

Possibly, it's better for younger fencers to fence in their age group, and find people of similar skill levels there, then to go to a div II or div III event? Plus, as was stated in some other thread, the division 2 and 3 events are already monstrous, especially at Summer Nationals.

[Mo]

Yeah, but that would add alot of fencers to Div III, and Cadet fencers already have two events they can enter (Junior and Cadet.)

Possibly, it's better for younger fencers to fence in their age group, and find people of similar skill levels there, then to go to a div II or div III event? Plus, as was stated in some other thread, the division 2 and 3 events are already monstrous, especially at Summer Nationals.

This is a hot topic for me. I don't think age should be a determiner for anything for kids when it comes to doing something they would do anyway.
Kids are separated into age categories that are almost impossible to break out of. It is ludicrous.
Everyone is different.
If a 1st grade student can read everything put in front of him or her, should they be forced to keep pace with a class of kids who cannot read a blessed thing? NO.
If a kid can do math very well should they be held back to basic arithmetic when they are ready for fractions. decimals and algebra? NO says I.
If a kid is a very good fencer let them fence where they are comfortable. Just because someone is short on age does not mean they are short on ability.
There are rules in place to keep any fencing kid out of age groups beyond their ability. The way the USFA has it set up for working one's way up the age group seems to be very efficient. There are not very many youth fencers in the category.
This is something that does not even need to be discussed. Let sleeping dogs lie. STS