Found Weapon?

[bobschlegel]

Hello Fencers,

I have not taken this sport up yet, although it looks interesting. I found something in the attic rafters of a house I lived in 25 years ago and decided I must find out what it is. It looks like it could be a "weapon" but I really have no idea. It has markings as follows:
"J.I Lau & Co. New-York"
"Made in Germany"
"SOLINGEN"
and an "A" in a circle.

The "blade" is rectangular and tapers to a point. It is about 24" long. The handle portion (rat tail) is about 8" long with threads at the end.
It is hand-wrought as the handle is especially noticabley hammered.

I have pictures but could not attach them here.

If you could help me identify it, I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks in Advance,

Bob

[Jareth]

Is is it a sport weapon or is it meant to kill? It sounds like a foil to me.

[bobschlegel]

My guess is that it is meant to kill. I believe it is pretty old, possibly 100 years old because the house that I found it is is at least that old and it was stuck in the rafters so that it would be not noticed very easily. What confuses me is that the "blade" is only 24" long. If it isn't a weapn then it is some sort of tool (possibly a reamer of some sort). But it was imported from Soligen Germany where excellent steel is produced and why would such a simple tool be imported? Is a foil only a sport weapon or were foils also produced to kill. Were foils used in WW I? Would a foil only be 24"?

Thanks!

Bob

[Purple Fencer]

Sounds like a sport foil blade (I can't imagine the markings you describe on a real combat weapon)...also sounds like you have a bare blade because you reference the "rat tail" end...this is likely the tang, the part of the blade that fits inside the grip...held in place by a pommel screwed on to the end.

As to the maker....25 years is WAY before I got involved in the sport....Donald Clinton...any answers here??

[CvilleFencer]

I would almost think that it could be a "spike" style bayonet as some of them had rectangular or triangular cross sections and the length would make more sense, but those would not be threaded in the conventional manner. It is possible that it is simply a broken foil that someone ground a point onto for anything from punching holes in insulation to running wire through to spiking rats. If you could post the pics that would help a lot.

Inq might know since he has most likely been around the sport at least a hundred years, and IIRC the bridge he lived under before the goats ran him out was somewhere in Germany...

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I would almost think that it could be a "spike" style bayonet as some of them had rectangular or triangular cross sections and the length would make more sense, but those would not be threaded in the conventional manner. It is possible that it is simply a broken foil that someone ground a point onto for anything from punching holes in insulation to running wire through to spiking rats. If you could post the pics that would help a lot.

Yah....that's a possibility...the legal length for a #5 blade is 90cm, AROUND 35 inches...and a 24 inch length sounds about right for a broken foil...

Inq might know since he has most likely been around the sport at least a hundred years, and IIRC the bridge he lived under before the goats ran him out was somewhere in Germany...

Ohhhhh...the attack arrives!!!

[bobschlegel]

You're right. there is no handle, just a tang. And no hand guard either. I don't think it was broken because it has a nice even taper to the point. I think I'll just call it an old, short foil. Maybe I'll get a handle to fit and keep it by the bed in case an old rat comes wandering by. Thanks for your help and keep enjoying your sport!

Bob

[Inquartata]

Possibly someone filed a point onto a foil broken blade, intending to remount it somehow; I turned a broken epee blade into a stiletto dagger that way. Though the Solingen mark makes me wonder. Maybe a blade intended hold the hilt of a parade or fraternal sword in a scabbard, ie not intended to be drawn or used. How wide is the blade on a side? A foil blade shouldn't be more than 3/4" wide at its widest point.

Hard to say from the description.

What drove me from under my beloved bridge was the SMELL of those goats. Whew! They were pungent! Almost as bad as epeeists.

[elberto]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

What drove me from under my beloved bridge was the SMELL of those goats. Whew! They were pungent! Almost as bad as epeeists.

nothing smells as bad as epeeists..... except maybe a fencing bag wiht whites that haven't been washed for a long time... actually that is probably why epeeists smell so bad - they haven't washed or been washed....

may be a min blade maybe where the flat end that was supposed to take a "rubber" tip has rusted away - but you say it is too well made (the point) to have simply broken off - I have seen some very good "sharpened" blades - I actually made a lock pick out of a broken steam foil blade (before electric foil - practice foil.. fyi) - works (oops... worked) quite well as the blade is quite strong.... (well.. was strong... )

[KD5MDK]

How about it being an old youth blade?

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

How about it being an old youth blade?

Hmmmm...doubtful....presuming blades for youth are approximately the same length as today (did they even have kids blades 25 years ago?) it's still too short.

The #2 and #0 lengths are NOLT codified in teh rules, but generally they're only three or four inches shorter than a #5....still longer than the blade we;re discussing here.

Good guess tho!

[Zilverzmurfen]

This thread discusses blade forges/stamps. Someone added this link where it says a little something about Solingen.

I found this website and this URL (in german only) which may be of interest to fencers.

[broncofencer]

What about it being a schlager style blade? Being that the bladeis from Germany it is quite possible. I don't know enough about the fencing fraternities of hiedleberg to give a true depiction but It could be something of that nature.

Perhaps someone who knows more could ellaborate.

[yeoldearmourer]

Have any of you thought that the blade was design for a sword cane which make the blade the right length for a sword cane. I have several sword cane from Gernmay with blades made in Solingen. And the local company would stamp there name on the blade. my aveage blade length is 24 inches.

[Purple Fencer]

Now THERE'S an idea I hadn't considered (probably because sword canes are illegal in California...)

[Black Jeebus]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

did they even have kids...25 years ago?

[yeoldearmourer]

We even allow to carry conceled weapons in ID. Our weapons permit doesn't limited it to handguns. The permit says conceled weapons which included switchblades knife which my wife carry if you know my wife that hard to beleive but she does have a nice bone handle one. She doesn't like the sound that handguns make even though she is a outstanding shot with both pistol and rilfe. Her hand gun is A S&W 357 Highway patrol model load with Black Talons.
She is such a nice person to. She also have a sword cane as well.

[GGK]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

Have any of you thought that the blade was design for a sword cane which make the blade the right length for a sword cane. I have several sword cane from Gernmay with blades made in Solingen. And the local company would stamp there name on the blade. my aveage blade length is 24 inches.

That sounds right.

G

[bobschlegel]

I believe that it is a sword cane! If I could definitely call it, I'd say yeoldearmourer wins!

The dimensions of the blade at the handle end are about 1/2" x 3/8" and, as I said, it tapers gradually 24" to a sharp point with dimensions immediately before the point of less than 1/8" x 1/8". Therefore, for it to be a broken foil, it would have to extend another 9 inches or so at this very small diameter.

That being the case, does anyone know where I can obtain a blank cane that would hold this sword? Might be kinda nice to have on a trip to the shadier part of town (assumming it is not illegal).

I gotta say, this has been fun. I joined the discussion group just to get help on identifying this but I think I'll stick around just for the fun!

Thanks,
Bob (aka Spike)

[CvilleFencer]

Most places in the US that is going to be a no no. A lot of places have specific laws on the books against sword canes or any concealed edge weapon with a blade over 3-6 inches in length. A lot of courts, and even more cops are very liberal with what they consider to be a blade, up to and including ice picks and screw drivers. Be sure to check your local laws about this before you even think of carrying it. Also keep in mind that regardless of what the criminal law states, what a street cop understands the law to be can differ a fair amount and heaven forbid you ever had to use it, civil law and awards against you by your former assailant (who now miraculously becomes the victim) or his family/survivors can cause a lot of problems.

If you want a good concealable defensive weapon that is less likely to get you in trouble check out kubatons, ASP or other expandable batons, tasers/stun guns, or even some passive defensive weapons like the Surefire tactical lights (taking the beam from one of these in the face is disorienting for a few seconds, similar to the flash of a flash bang). I am not a huge fan of untrained people having pepper spray/mace but it is another option that is much less likely to cause problems later on. Of course for most of us a CCP is a great defensive option, but you have to have a weapon small enough to carry all the time (a big mean gun that is to heavy to carry with you when you might need it is useless, so even small 32-38's can be effective for this purpose since most gunfights occur at something like 7 feet). The key here is training with the weapon (not just punching holes in paper, but tactical training, weapon retention, etc) and being comfortable with it. Also know when and where you can/can't carry it such as into a federal building, places that serve alcohol, schools, churches, etc (in short, the places I most feel the need to shoot someone! )

If you are really into the sword cane idea but want something a little less likely to be detected and a little more portable/useful check out this puppy or it's big brother. I had one of the smaller ones for years and I loved it. Lost it at the airport in Dallas. Not because they found it/took it, but because they lost my bag. Also, one of our forum members, D+F+P=Hadoken makes custom bokkens, wooden practice swords, etc. Might be worth giving him an e-mail as it would not be a hard thing to make.