Found Weapon?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Are you SURE you were in LE?

The differance being that a sworn LE officer has the power of office behind him. As a civilian in my cargo shorts and flip flops, if I draw my CCP weapon to help control the escalation of an incedent, at least in my super PC little town, I am going to catch hell unless there was a clear threat to my life or the lifes of others. I think it is a bit of a bad idea to encourage the average joe civilian without military or LE background to brandish their weapons in something that is not a clear use of force situation. In short, if you draw your weapon it is not with the intent to itimidaite. It is with the intent to fire it in defense. Or are you encouraging motorists to waive their pistols around whenever someone is "driving aggressively" towards them to "get them to back off" or pulling their pistol at the ball games cause someone was "crowding him and talking **** to his girl". Is that what you think is a swell idea there officer Inq?

And unless you're still LE or have a Class III license it's also thoroughly illegal. ( The wallet holster setup, not the pistol ).

How typically Inquartata. Rattling his sabers and spouting his version of the "facts" as incontravertable. While the BATF, in their infinite wisdom, declared the wallet with a finger hole style pocket/wallet holsters (my favorite kind) to be illegle (heaven forbid the poor robber not have a fair chance) there are several high quality options available that do not conceal the "gun-ness" of the weapon including Galco, Kramer and Andrew Custom, with the Galco probably being my favorite of the new style. As to the class III, if I already have the gun, class III is just paying for the tax stamp and mailing the paper work. No big. It is NOT a license, it is a tax stamp per weapon/device.

Meh, you delicate epeeists...

Brutish, loud, overcompensating saberist...

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yeah. My house has never burned down, either. Therefore I conclude that it never will, and in fact cannot. Why bother with smoke detectors, fire extinguishers or insurance?

Fires are quite real Inq and I have had fires happen (more often when my husband cooks). I have smoke detectors, fire extinguishers and insurance. We never travel without a fire extinguisher in our car.... you can see the black smudges on the side of the road where cars burn.

I just don't carry a gun/ weapon. I am amazed (and amused) by your unwillingness/ inability to see that we live in different environments.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Ahhhhh....Mrs. Peel....mmmmm.....

I should have pegged you for a fellow avengers fan! I have most of the first season on A&E VHS, and one or two on DVD. If we are ever at a NAC at the same time, remind me if you like and you would be welcome to borrow them. For that matter if you make it to the Richmond NAC in 06 we should go shooting. Maybe I can make you into a Seecamp fan...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

As a civilian in my cargo shorts and flip flops, if I draw my CCP weapon to help control the escalation of an incedent, at least in my super PC little town, I am going to catch hell unless there was a clear threat to my life or the lifes of others.

As opposed to the coupon for a day at the spa the city will doubtless give you for discharging your weapon, much less actually hitting someone?

Act until you stop the threat. If the sight of a weapon stops the threat, going any further is probably going to land you in jail. And get you sued...

if you draw your weapon it is not with the intent to itimidaite. It is with the intent to fire it in defense.

Intent, yes. But---every intent MUST be carried out to the fullest? No. Assess the situation and act accordingly. If the threat ebbs, there's no need to escalate. Forensic investigation WILL show it if the guy's hands are up when you shoot...

Or are you encouraging motorists to waive their pistols around whenever someone is "driving aggressively" towards them to "get them to back off" or pulling their pistol at the ball games cause someone was "crowding him and talking **** to his girl". Is that what you think is a swell idea there officer Inq?

Brobdingnagian straw man.

Your assertion was "gun comes out, it shoots". Nothing was said about drawing in every petty situation. That's a different argument altogether.

As to the class III, if I already have the gun, class III is just paying for the tax stamp and mailing the paper work. No big. It is NOT a license, it is a tax stamp per weapon/device.

Semantics. The FFL is typically referred to as a "Class III".

And---does this semantic quibble alter the fact that the wallet holster is illegal without the license? No. So your point was...?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Fires are quite real Inq

Murders, robberies, rapes and assaults aren't?

and I have had fires happen

But I haven't. So I don't need to take any precautions, since in my experience fires never happen. This is no different from your stance that because you have never been the victim of a crime you never will be, so no precautions need be taken. Is it not?

I just don't carry a gun/ weapon. I am amazed (and amused) by your unwillingness/ inability to see that we live in different environments.

Ah. So crime is nonexistant in Canada? Criminals are great respecters of "environments"?

You've never been victimized because your number hasn't come up---not because crime doesn't exist or you are immune to it or is somehow warded off by the magic of your latitude and longitude...

I'm amazed ( and amused ) by your willingness/ability to look at what goes on every day in the world around you and still conclude that you are forever safe and sound.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I should have pegged you for a fellow avengers fan!

In my salad days I had dreams which began with the phrase "Mrs. Peel? You're kneaded."

if you make it to the Richmond NAC in 06 we should go shooting.

Is there an NAC scheduled for Richmond?

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yeah. My house has never burned down, either. Therefore I conclude that it never will, and in fact cannot. Why bother with smoke detectors, fire extinguishers or insurance?

An excellent point; however, I can leave fire extinguishers and smoke detectors wherever I want without worrying too much about someone hurting themselves. I can even leave them lying around with agent in them and no pin...

I'm even encouraged to show little kids where they are, how they work, and how they're used.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Ah. So crime is nonexistant in Canada? Criminals are great respecters of "environments"?

Don't I wish... Canada has crime, definitely. A fair amount of it, too. For the most part, we stab, beat, and strangle ourselves to death - much slower than shooting, so for a lot of people, it's really not worth the effort. There are, unfortunately, some exceptions.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I'm amazed ( and amused ) by your willingness/ability to look at what goes on every day in the world around you and still conclude that you are forever safe and sound.

When you say "the world around you", on what scale do you mean - locally? Globally? I could probably say that I can expect at some time in my life to have my car or house broken into or vandalized, but I'm not the least bit worried I'm going to be shot by marauding Danes who are hell-bent on claiming Hans Island...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

An excellent point; however, I can leave fire extinguishers and smoke detectors wherever I want without worrying too much about someone hurting themselves. I can even leave them lying around with agent in them and no pin...

If you carry a gun, it's not lying around unattended.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

I'm not the least bit worried I'm going to be shot by marauding Danes who are hell-bent on claiming Hans Island...

No, just Arabs paradise-bent on claiming the world in the name of Allah. You guys live entirely too close to the "Great Satan" for comfort, no?

[yeoldearmourer]

Well before we have conceled weapon permit we still carry conceled as at the time I was a working cowboy and always worn and handgun undernearth my winter coat while riding and we always had a rife or two in the truck. Most of us carry knives as well. we would run into without think about our sidearm all the permit did was legalize it.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Ah. So crime is nonexistant in Canada? Criminals are great respecters of "environments"?

You've never been victimized because your number hasn't come up---not because crime doesn't exist or you are immune to it or is somehow warded off by the magic of your latitude and longitude...

I'm amazed ( and amused ) by your willingness/ability to look at what goes on every day in the world around you and still conclude that you are forever safe and sound.

I'm not criticizing your need/ desire to carry firearms, it’s just different from what we’re used to up here.

Studies have shown when there is more crowding, there is also more crime. Where I live may grow to be less safe as well.

My husband and I like less populated areas, so we plan to retire outside of the city within the next 5 years. For that reason crime will most likely not be an issue. Should something happen, so be it.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

No, just Arabs paradise-bent on claiming the world in the name of Allah. You guys live entirely too close to the "Great Satan" for comfort, no?

Yeah, but as far as infidels go, you guys are okay.

[yeoldearmourer]

A gun or a rife is nothing but a tool of the trade I know of familys in Id wouldn't have meat on ther table without hunting. Like any tool it can be misuse. don't believe this nonsense that I heard that the early settlers in American didn't have firearms. They had them to hunt if and to defend there settlements. I am a vet of two wars and have shot and killed in both wars my son in Iraq is a expert marksman because he grew up with weapons and training. He was also training in hand to hand combat and in the use of the blade as well. That I made sure of.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

You Aussies are an odd bunch. Now I see why the took all your guns away...

I think that the events in New Orleans, e.g. people looting guns from Wal-mart, give another reason to add to the (IMO) already long list of reasons why guns should not be made widely available to people (or why they should be less widely available than they are in many parts of America).

I'm also unsettled by the attitude that people need to carry around weapons to protect themselves against criminals. It reflects a mentality of distrust and "it's me against the world", a la Robert de Niro's character in Taxi Driver. I think a city where everyone carries a concealed weapon to protect themselves makes it not less, but more likely you will find yourself in a life-threatening situation.

[yeoldearmourer]

Studies here the states show the state that make concealed permit easy to obtain for honest citziten to get the number of crimes goes down. I know for a fact that I was carrying has saved me several times just by opening my coat and showed them I was armed. Sometime being handicapped the crimiarl think you are a easy target. Just opening the sword cane and showing 4 inch of blade as kept me from getting mug. George Santelli in his eightes was confront by three muggers would didn't realize that the old man with a regular cane knock out all three with sabre head cuts. There knifes didn't do them any good againist a expert swordman even if he was in his eighties. When Fla passed the first concealed the left in this country proclaim that it would be Dodge City on a Satuarday night. The left is trying to say that guns in westeran town was low and the majortily of the citizen was not armed that a bunch of lieds the west was settle by man that just went though a terrible war most house in the old west was armed even in towns. Ask the Daltons bros when they got shot to pieces by the Citizen fo Northfleid.
One of are founding fathers said when you give up freedoms for Secutiy you have neither. The press in this country talk alot about the First Amenedent in this Country alot. The founding Fathers then put the right to bear arms as the second amenedent for without there is no first. Now what is not reported in the news is the TV company as hired armed guards to protect there News Crews in New Orleans. You can't depend on the police to protect you and the Sumpere Court as ruled that the police can't be everwhere.
It's funny the citys in this country which has the toughest gunlaws like New York and Washington DC were you can't even own a gun has the highest crime rate. Where cities with easy to obtain Wepons permit the crime rate as gone down. Do I carry all the time no I don't only when banking large sums of money for several business's.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Is there an NAC scheduled for Richmond?

It is not scheduled yet, but we have a bid in for the December 06 NAC and considering the positive feedback we got from the last one I don't expect it to be a problem. I will not know for sure for a while yet, but I am hopeful. Well, except for the part where we lay down all those strips and then try to fence the next day...

[CvilleFencer]

My how threads drift, but I hate letting Inq's own private label brand of insanity pass unopposed. Of course he know this, which is probably why he likes arguing with me...

Originally Posted by Inquartata

As opposed to the coupon for a day at the spa the city will doubtless give you for discharging your weapon, much less actually hitting someone?

Oh, I would spend the night in jail (with any luck the judge I would see in the morning would be one of my fencers. Sometimes small towns are cool) and most likely face a grand jury for the validity of the shoot. I would be much happier however being able to say that I used my weapon as a last resort and in response to a threat to my life or the lives of others than saying I was forced to use my weapon after the situation escalated when I pulled it in a bluff and THEN Billy Bob pulled his weapon. Also, lets say you roll up to a scene and there are 3 guys, openhanded and one guy waiving a pistol around. Who do you level your weapon at? Who is likely to get shot if he does something moderately stupid? The guy waiving his weapon.

Act until you stop the threat. If the sight of a weapon stops the threat, going any further is probably going to land you in jail. And get you sued...

Intent, yes. But---every intent MUST be carried out to the fullest? No. Assess the situation and act accordingly. If the threat ebbs, there's no need to escalate. Forensic investigation WILL show it if the guy's hands are up when you shoot...

We agree fully on this one. I am simply saying that it is a bad idea for a civilian to draw a weapon if there is not an appropriate use of force threat in the hopes of containing a lesser situation that could be handled verbally or walked away from. On duty even snapping the holster open or placing your hand on the but can calm someone down. That is the power of the office and what a uniformed LEO represents. That can backfire for a civilian in that the situation can escalate from that point, especially if the civilian in question appears "weak" or is someone the would be perps feel they would loose face backing down to, such as an elderly, female or handicapped person. You know this, and I am really surprised that we are arguing about it...

Your assertion was "gun comes out, it shoots". Nothing was said about drawing in every petty situation. That's a different argument altogether.

Okay, fine. I amend my statement to read If the gun comes out, you should be prepared to shoot. It should not be with the sole or primary intent to bluff or bully. Are you a happier person now? Prepare for joyously gleeful reciprocity the next time you fail to quantify a statement to its fullest extent...