Paying the referees

[Tomas N]

We're holding a tournament at our school in early October and I'm trying to figure out how much to pay the referees. The division recommends $40 (although apparently we're not required to pay anything) but that seems low for a day's worth of work. How much do referees typically get paid for a tournament with an event in the morning and one in the afternoon? Do you also pay travel expenses? Based on mileage? Lunch? What if the referee fences in one event and referees in another? (Fences open foil and referees open epee).

Just trying to get a sense of common practices out there in the field. In our division there just aren't that many referees, but I'm not surprised since they are expected to work all day long for peanuts!

Tomas

[yeoldearmourer]

On the National Level the pay is 40.00 a day for a 5 or above plus lunch. And water is also provided. But what you pay on a local level is another thing. If they what to fence one weapon waive the entry fee for exchange of them referee. But still feed them lunch. ON a national level the base pay is 40.00 a day and ahonourem base on there ranking I know my wife and daughter makes about 65.00 a day at a Nac. But for a local event 40.is about right it depends also how much can you afford and how big the entrys are.

[Dan H]

WPD has varied its referee pay a bit, sometimes paying mileage on top of the normal pay. The USFA has a pay scale based upon experience, and it's okay to do this locally, too. Probably you want to attract at least one or two experienced refs with 5+ ratings in more than one weapon. In that case, $60 plus a little for mileage will probably keep them happy enough to consider driving up to Meadville the next time you're asking around. For the up-and-coming refs, $40 is a good rate. You should probably pay mileage to refs of any rating whom you have invited to referee the tournament, considering gas for the round trip can easily eat up most of the $40. Providing lunch is pretty much expected if your tournament stretches over the lunch hour. Your top refs will be used to expectations of a full day's work and a professional demeanor. You don't have to pay them $60 plus mileage if they ref one event and fence another, except maybe in the case in which someone is pressed by the tournament organizers into previously unplanned fencing to bring the tournament up to 15. Work something out - maybe $30 without mileage would be appropriate.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

On the National Level the pay is 40.00 a day for a 5 or above plus lunch.

This is wrong.

The national scale is as follows (including both per diem and honorarium):

6-10 $40
4-5 $65
3 $85
1-2 $120

Obviously other expenses (breakfast and lunch, travel expenses (mileage and/or flights), hotels, etc.) are also covered (dinner comes out of the per diem unless the day goes beyond 7pm in which case it's provided (although generally this makes for a first dinner during the event followed by a real dinner afterwards).

Local rates go from all volunteer (or an entry fee waiver to be used in the future) to $100+ plus mileage, in my experience.

What do you have to pay? Supply and demand will set that. If you have lots of refs looking to work for the day and don't care about pay you can go with next to nothing. Have no one at all that's competent that's willing to come to you and that rate goes up.

What SHOULD you pay? You're asking a highly trained (okay, somewhere between trained and highly trained depending on the person) individual to give up an entire weekend day. What is that day worth? It's a lot more than $40. Just because people are willing to work for that little doesn't mean that's all you should pay. Make it worth the time. Everyone'll be happier and it'll be easier to get refs again in the future.

-B :)

[Mr Epee]

I would take this approach...

If you plan on running a small amature event, don't pay them at all. Your goal will met.

If you want to have a medium to large event, where people go home happy and eager to attend next year, then you should charge an entry fee of 30usd+, pay your referees standard milage, and 75usd+ per day. You will get good referees, who will facilitate a good competition, making it an enjoyable and worthwhile event.

The USFA standard pay is extremely low, but it is sort of offset because you are flown and kept in a fairly nice hotel... get to socialize with friends from all over the country, and get the opportunity to advance ratings and improve... etc... so you won't usually get competent referees for those variety of peanuts.

[darius]

If you plan on running a small amature event, don't pay them at all. Your goal will met.

I disagree.

Even if you've got 15 entrants at $10-20, it's worth spending a few bucks to get at least one or two qualified refs.

Even at events where self-refereeing happens, it's a nice gesture to hand the fencers who helped out (and thus put themselves at a competitive disadvantage) a few bucks, or make sure their entry was free, or feed them lunch.

darius

[Mr Epee]

Sorry, I was being sarcastic... I didn't imagine that anyone would be intentionally planning to host a tiny amateur event.

[yeoldearmourer]

[quote=oiuyt]This is wrong.

The national scale is as follows (including both per diem and honorarium):

6-10 $40
4-5 $65
3 $85
1-2 $120

Obviously other expenses (breakfast and lunch, travel expenses (mileage and/or flights), hotels, etc.) are also covered (dinner comes out of the per diem unless the day goes beyond 7pm in which case it's provided (although generally this makes for a first dinner during the event followed by a real dinner afterwards).

Local rates go from all volunteer (or an entry fee waiver to be used in the future) to $100+ plus mileage, in my experience.

What do you have to pay? Supply and demand will set that. If you have lots of refs looking to work for the day and don't care about pay you can go with next to nothing. Have no one at all that's competent that's willing to come to you and that rate goes up.

What SHOULD you pay? You're asking a highly trained (okay, somewhere between trained and highly trained depending on the person) individual to give up an entire weekend day. What is that day worth? It's a lot more than $40. Just because people are willing to work for that little doesn't mean that's all you should pay. Make it worth the time. Everyone'll be happier and it'll be easier to get refs again in the future.

-B [/QUOT I WASN'T INCULED honourarium on purpose I knew excat what it is because if you knew my wife and daughter they work almost every NAC and National for the last several years. We talking about about a local High school tounery that may not be able to afford a good referee to come in Plus he hasn't mention where this is being held at what state and city. I know national referee to work a small for just lunch and gas money just to help out
my Family has done this in the past which inclued three rank referee plus a Armourer who is the thrid ref of the family excuse we now have a fourth menber of the family who as a ten in epee now

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Sorry, I was being sarcastic... I didn't imagine that anyone would be intentionally planning to host a tiny amateur event.

Actually, I just got finished hosting one myself. Div3 Men's sabre, Div3 Women's Sabre, Youth 10/12 Mixed Sabre. (http://askfred.net/Results/results.p...nament_id=1052). From the outset, it was intended to be small, friendly and developmental in nature and something that took place over a few hours using half of a rec center gym. There were a total of 20 entrants in the three events. And I hired two referees, both well trained, experienced fencers, but not fully certified referees, yet capable of refereeing on that level. They were paid $40, which barely covered what it cost to drive across town, given current gas prices and a meal. Bout Committee, event setup everything else were totally volunteer. Everyone had a good time, and got to fence people of similar capabilities.

Small and amateur does not neccessarily mean poorly run or not worth attending. Or not worth putting on. I cleared a small profit (after rental, awards and other expenses), but more importantly, gave my students and students from other clubs an opportunity to practice their competitive skills.

Oh, and I also run very large regional events, so I do know the resources neccessary to big events.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by Tomas N

Just trying to get a sense of common practices out there in the field. In our division there just aren't that many referees, but I'm not surprised since they are expected to work all day long for peanuts!

Keep in mind that in your division and immediate nearby area, you have some of the finest referees in the nation. These folks have had extensive experience in all sorts of fencing tournaments wearing many hats, individually and collectively, so if you keep your mind open and treatment reasonable, they will go out of their way to help you make your tournament successful one. Just from what's available in your local area, you could really make your tournament a successful one that everyone will go home with a good memory, without going overboard with budget.

I referee A LOT throughout the season -- national events, collegiate, scholastic, local USFA, you name it. For "local" events, I tend to float around northeastern US -- PA, NJ, NY, CT, MA, RI. Anything in that territory is a local event for me. So I see a wide range of conditions in terms of compensation, resources, customer base, etc. And there are many other referees such as myself.

Although you would be hiring them for the function of refereeing, you would be surprised just how useful they can be in other aspects of your tournament effort. Remember, many of them have seen just about everything that can happen in a fencing event and they know ins and outs of operating a fencing tournament from efficiency and quality point of view. That's something fencers definitely appreciate.

You make money from travelling fencers, and fencers will make it a point to travel to you if they remember being given a good service and product. In your local vicinity, there's a heavy concentration of such travelling fencers. As long as the event date doesn't conflict with any other well known/attended event, is given long enough notice, and you provide good experience, fencers will return.

Generally, this is what's out there in "local" events staffed by the "usual crew" of referees, divisions in no particular order:


Division A:
$100 a day, free access to food stand all day, no separate compensation for travel, long and heavy work load (mostly due to poor planning, up to 12+ events per day)

Division B:
$100 a day, no food, no separate compensation for travel, easy work (they'll keep you in one weapon, they run 2-3 events per day)

Division C:
$80 - $150 a day, lunch, no separate compensation for travel, very well run and smooth operation, potentially long day but solely depends on how efficient referees were (immediate reward/punishment, 2-6 events per day)

Division D:
$100 - $120 a day, free access to officials-only food table, separate compensation for travel and lodging (for visiting referees), amazingly well run events (3-6 events per day)

Something to keep in mind. These numbers are based on what I personally experienced. Organizers know at what level I happily operate at. They are very well aware of my travelling/working pattern -- which, of course, is different for everyone. Payments often are different for referees serving in a same event. Largely based on what level of refereeing they were hired for, how far they had to travel, and if they went out of their way to make that assignment happen. There are select referees whom organizers will gladly go out of norms to bring in because their presence/service will be well worth it.

Scholastic and collegiate assignements vary greatly in terms of what you work with and compensation. I have worked for as little as $40 and as much as $270 a day (might even have been more but I don't remember exact amount).

Now, going back to your situation....

I take it that you are preparing for Allegheny Open. First hosting attempt by a university club, $15-$20 registration fee, 2 events + Unrated.

If the preregistration number is fairly low, I would suggest that you invest in minimum of 2 professional referees. Have them responsible for all the Final Rounds, and share their workload throughout the day with other "volunteer" referees available. Keep them local to minimize overall cost. If you compensate them at a level they are used to (as described above) and even a little less, you shouldn't have any trouble finding locally available, highly qualified referees. Not only will they perform their duties as referees, but they would provide a phoenomenal level of support in all aspects of running a tournament. When professional referees get hired for low-level, upstart tournaments, they tend to get bored and find ways to keep themselves active -- mainly by helping out with the operations!

On the other hand, if you start seeing B's and C's in your preregistration list as well as higher number of entrants (which would be a GREAT NEWS for you), then I strongly suggest that you shift gear and consider investing in a well staffed referee body. You may not make much of a profit, but it will be a worthwhile investment that will bring your club spiffy revenue in the years to come.

Good wishes to your endeavors,

Vagabond Referee

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Mauler

On the other hand, if you start seeing B's and C's in your preregistration list as well as higher number of entrants (which would be a GREAT NEWS for you), then I strongly suggest that you shift gear and consider investing in a well staffed referee body. You may not make much of a profit, but it will be a worthwhile investment that will bring your club spiffy revenue in the years to come.

Also if you want to grow the event by attracting outsiders to come travel to you, having a visible pre-reg list (on, say, AskFred) would be a very good way to help with that effort. Hard to attract people to a new event without them having some idea of whether or not other good people are likely to attend.

-B :)

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

I WASN'T INCULED honourarium on purpose I knew excat what it is because if you knew my wife and daughter they work almost every NAC and National for the last several years.

Okay, it's STILL wrong looking just at the non-honorarium portion of the volunteer officials' compensation (wouldn't want to call it "pay", that might make them employees :) ), which is $20/day. And I DO know your wife and daughter. And much of the rest of your family. I also have worked almost every NAC and Nationals for the last several years.

Personally I think it makes much more sense to look at the whole compensation package (and Mr Epee does a good job of listing several of the many non-financial compensations the USFA offers at NACs) than just the per diem -- which, in theory anyway, is merely a covering of expenses (dinner, incidentals), rather than a portion of the compensation (which is why it's separated out from the honorarium and isn't included in the 1099 tax forms as income).

-B :)

[Tomas N]

Thanks for all the info. It's nice to know what the range of practices are so that I don't lowball someone and tick him/her off. The tournament is indeed the Allegheny Open. Since I'm not getting paid to do all the work to organize the tournament, one might think that I would want the refs to work for free. But the economist in me thinks, as has been noted, that people respond to incentives, and if we want more people to practice to be refs in our area, we'll have to compensate them a bit more.

I should have done prereg on Askfred, but since (to my knowledge) no tournament in my division has ever used it, it didn't seem to me as a newbie a great idea at the time. But the extra information might sway a couple more folks to register. I'm doing preregistration via email instead...I'll try fred next time.

I've managed to get 4-5 refs committed to attending, so hopefully we'll have enough participants to make it worth it!

Tomas

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Tomas N

I should have done prereg on Askfred, but since (to my knowledge) no tournament in my division has ever used it, it didn't seem to me as a newbie a great idea at the time. But the extra information might sway a couple more folks to register. I'm doing preregistration via email instead...I'll try fred next time.

You can still use Fred, you'll just have to enter all the data as event organizer, instead of being able to let everyone else do their little bit of the labor for you.

-B :)

[RebelFencer]

Good fencing referees are like indentured servants. They live for this kind of thing...so pay is a bit insulting and superfluous.

[oso97]

While the pay is modest (in the extreme) for the level of training and skill required...

It is NOT superflous!

[RebelFencer]

haha, I'm just messin with you guys oso. I know I couldn't handle being a ref at a big event.

[Inquartata]

"Those referees thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledged Level 10 "

[Chafunkta]

No wonder so many people complain about bad referees. $40 a day is the lowest I have ever heard of a sport official being paid. I umpire fastpitch softball, which isn't a huge sport, and I get $20 for an hour long game. I usually call about 5 games so that's $100 for about half a day. I know t-ball umpires that can make a lot more