Semantics, nit-picking, or snobbery...

[El Chucko]

Does it bother you when people refer to their foil, epee, or sabre as a "sword"?

Do you care if a fencer talks about their "helmet," and not their mask?

Is a French "handle" the same as a French grip?

[akaiyuki]

I've never heard a fencer refer to their foil, epee, or sabre as a sword... I've only heard it from non-fencers... and I laugh.
I'd say "mask!" if a fencer calls their mask a helmet. It's just fun - not that I really care. Heck, there were random times when I almost said helmet instead of mask... =X
French handle, french grip... I pay no attention to that.

[Aestro]

a handle is on a toilet, a helmet on a football player, and a sword is sold in those "discount oriental" stands in the mall. I'll probably correct someone just on principle, but I'm not offended or anything when it actually happens. As akaiyuki mentioned, it'll be a non-fencer or possibly a new fencer ninety-nine times out of a hundred that does it.

I correct mostly because the other words tend to not properly fit their meanings - when we refer to it as sword-fighting to get new members, we get a lot of people thinking they're going to be doing SCA. A helmet is designed to protect the head, while a mask is designed for the face. Our gear has very large opens spots on half the head, but does completely cover the face. And a handle makes people want to grab everything like a broadsword, where-as grip seems (to me anyways) to imply a specific manner of holding it, much like there is a specific way to grip a football.

The only thing that drives me crazy is hearing it pronounced "eep-ee".

[Black Jeebus]

We try to tell our beginners about all the little faux pas of fencing. Never a sword, or a helmet, never forget to salute, always shake hands with the off-weapon hand. They never remember till someone outside the club reminds them.

[esquila]

It only bothers me when people call their foil a sword, or mask a helmet, etc., because I was corrected when I first started- and it's stuck in my head ever since. Otherwise I probably wouldn't care too much.

[parryDoh]

The only thing that drives me crazy is hearing it pronounced "eep-ee".

Man I hate that too. "So do you fence with ur eep-ee?"

I noticed most people that say this got the word "epee" from crossword puzzles. They just dont know how to pronounce it.

[mrbiggs]

I used to care about the whole "sword" thing. But I've found that if you correct people, they tend to start calling all my weapons foils, which bothers me more. So now I just let it go.

[HDG]

In terms of semantics, why aren't foils, epees and sabers all components of the category of swords? It may be conventional within the fencing community to opt not to call them swords, but outside the rules of our little language game (thank you LW) a sword is a sword, and to say that one saber is a sword, but another saber is not would probably strike most people as a pretty factitious distinction. I mean look at the OED's definition for each of our three "weapons"

Foil:
A light weapon used in fencing; a kind of small-sword with a blunt edge and a button at the point.

Epee:
[Fr., = sword.]
The sharp-pointed sword used in duelling and (blunted) in fencing.

****Note the literal meaning in French of epee****

Saber
1. a. A cavalry sword having a curved blade specially adapted for cutting... In Fencing, a weapon with a flattened blade and blunted cutting edge, either curved or straight, lighter than the ÉPÉE; the exercise of fencing with sabres.

What is the meaning of sword?
A weapon adapted for cutting and thrusting, consisting of a handle or hilt with a cross-guard, and a straight or curved blade with either one or two sharp edges and a sharp point (or sometimes with blunt edges, and used only for thrusting).

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Helmet vs. Mask: aestro's argument seems on point; there is a meaningful distinction, and the two are not coterminous.

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Handle vs. Grip: What's the gripe? Again, semantically there is no meaningful difference, except that if you look it up, the first couple of definitions of grip are as a verb, and then when you read the noun form of grip... handle! By the way, go back and look at the defintion of sword.

With the exceptions of the second pairing, these are wholly arbitrary distinctions we have made to set ourselves apart as a community; if someone new comes into our community and doesn't understand the distinctions, not a big deal. If they reject these distinctions as meaningless, I think that language might be on their side actually.

[mrbiggs]

The argument against sword that I heard is that our swords are not sharp. And that they are therefore not swords. It has neither sharp edges nor a sharp point.

[VERITAS]

The argument for Mask vs. Helmet is quite valid - they are different.

Regarding calling our foils, epees, and sabers 'swords', why not? That is their origin and their purpose.

What do you call the group of foils, epees, and sabres? I guess they all are foiled, but that is unnecessarily confusing.

Calling them 'weapons' isn't much different from 'swords'. Formally speaking they could be referred to as 'practice swords/weapons'.

What I find far more problematic and irksome terminology-wise is when fencers don't know the name of the action they are attempting to practice or perform.

[CvilleFencer]

Funny thing, I call foils, epees, whatever by either their proper name in a given context (such as I am refereeing the epee but not the saber today), by swords or blades (grab your sword/blade and lets do some drills), or in general as weapons, kit or gear (grab the weapons bag out of the trunk in case someone forgot their kit). If anyone tried to correct me I would probably kick them. Hard. It's good the be the coach... I don't like the whole helmet thing however. It is a fencing mask or just plain mask. That is one I do try to drill into students heads but I won't correct them in the middle of drilling or a lesson as it breaks concentration for no greater purpose. More of in a teasing afterwards sort of way although honestly I will very rarely remember it other than to make a mental cringe the instant it happens and carry on with whatever I am doing.

As to the whole "it is not a sword" thing, I think that is just snobbery, foolishness or an attmpte by a weak person to inflate their self esteem by attempting to be seen as superior in some are of the sport, however petty. Take a foil for instance. If I call it by a foil, a foil is a specific term meaning among other things to make no longer functional for its original purpose. In this case you are "foiling" a sword so that it can no longer cut or pierce as it is designed. It is still a sword, it is just a blunt one. It has a hilt, pommel, blade, guard and in some cases even a cross piece! By saying foil, a person even more annoying than the one who started the whole “it’s not a sword” conversation could argue that this also is incorrect. The proper way to refer to the item in question would be to call it the "foiled practice fleuret, with or without electrical apperatus" as situationally appropriate.

Now that is just silly so call the damn thing a foil, sword, weapon or club depending on your mood, the situation and your level of skill. If you feel the need to be the club snob and/or lexicon police be prepared for a lengthy lecture as to the origins of the terms that you question, the evolution of languages and their use in modern lexicon and the social/psychological relevance of feeling the need to impose your version of propriety onto others without a needful cause. Or a swift kick, depending ones mood. Maybe even with an eye gouge thrown in just to show that the individual you attempted to lecture cares about you as a person.

To put it another way, we should all probably be doing footwork instead of worrying about what someone calls a "foiled practice sword, specifically relating to the fleuret, rapier or sabre categories, with or without electrical apparatus" instead of debating useless fencing trivia that basically boils down to personal preference. Speaking of which, off to do footwork...

[Inquartata]

This is not an attack on you, HDG---yours is just the most extensive and lucid analysis of the position.

I mean look at the OED's definition for each of our three "weapons"

Foil:
A light weapon used in fencing; a kind of small-sword with a blunt edge and a button at the point.

Then alas the OED is wrong, for a foil bears no resemblance to the smallsword whatsoever. It is a substitute for it, and a poor one IMO, not a form of it. You can toss a teacup around, but that does not make it a ball.

Epee:
[Fr., = sword.]
The sharp-pointed sword used in duelling and (blunted) in fencing.

****Note the literal meaning in French of epee****

Fair enough. We all know epeeists are wierd anyway.

But seriously, yes, the epee is the only one of the fencing weapons that might reasonably be used as a sword. Note however that even the French have other words for "sabre" and "foil". They do not call them all "epees".

Saber
1. a. A cavalry sword having a curved blade specially adapted for cutting... In Fencing, a weapon with a flattened blade and blunted cutting edge, either curved or straight, lighter than the ÉPÉE; the exercise of fencing with sabres.

Note the absence of the word "sword" in regard to the fencing sabre.

OTOH, we might make an equally forceful argument against calling fencing weapons "weapons". They really aren't, after all...

What is the meaning of sword?
A weapon adapted for cutting and thrusting, consisting of a handle or hilt with a cross-guard, and a straight or curved blade with either one or two sharp edges and a sharp point (or sometimes with blunt edges, and used only for thrusting).

By this definition most knives are swords. Certainly daggers and bayonets. And some spears. Etc. Heck, even the little skewers used for eating corn on the cob qualify.

Handle vs. Grip: What's the gripe? Again, semantically there is no meaningful difference, except that if you look it up, the first couple of definitions of grip are as a verb, and then when you read the noun form of grip... handle! By the way, go back and look at the defintion of sword.

All of our fencing terms are in the way of cant---specialized terms. Nothing wrong with that. The surgeon doesn't call his scalpel a knife or dagger or razor-blade, and sword terminology does not call a grip a "handle", nor a guard a "hilt". Neither does fencing weapon terminology.

Why do people want to dumb down the more precise words in favor of the broadest possible general ones?

[Inquartata]

Does it bother you when people refer to their foil, epee, or sabre as a "sword"?

Do you care if a fencer talks about their "helmet," and not their mask?

Is a French "handle" the same as a French grip?

Going just by the title of this thread, I think you have a preexisting opinion on this, no?

[El Chucko]

Don't sugar-coat it, Cville, tell us how you really feel.

[El Chucko]

Going just by the title of this thread, I think you have a preexisting opinion on this, no?

I must admit that certain terminology bothers me a little, but I almost always keep it to myself (other than now). I just think of it as a pet-peeve, and since I am borderline OCD, I just add it to my list of other eccentricities.

I would never bring it up as a way to put down another fencer, or try to insult a beginner. Fencing needs as much support as possible, and we need to be as welcoming and inclusive as we can to increase and maintain that support.

Oddly enough, for some reason, "handle" probably gets to me more than the others, and that example probably matters the least! Alot of vendors even use "handle" in their catalogs.

My wife has a degree in Linguistics, and whenever we get into these foolish discussions, she always reminds me that the purpose of language is to communicate. As long as you are communicating effectively and efficiently, who cares? That's why languages change and evolve.

I am just curious to see if others suffer from the same mania as myself, or actually have honest concern about it, or don't care at all.

Any other examples besides the original three?

[penguin_2000]

Sometimes they sound weird, but not enough to bother me or make me correct anyone. If I use mask vs. helmet, I don't care However, I definitely use a sabre mask/helmet to protect my head, as well as my face. Otherwise there wouldn't be mesh on the side and top. ...not so much in foil, though.

[AndrewH]

The freshmen on my old high school team would often refer to a bout as a "fight".

"Hey, can I fight you next?"
"Will i get to fight in the next meet?"

[DHCJr]

I doesn't bother me when someone says sword or weapon, but considering these P.C. times, if you go to an airport and you are asked what you have in your bag. Sword or weapon, may not be the best answer. Even saying Epee, Sabre or Foil, might not be so good. Sporting equipment probably would be better.

[Zilverzmurfen]

We all know epeeists are wierd anyway.

...and we all know you can't spell the word weird...

[parrythis]

...considering these P.C. times, if you go to an airport and you are asked what you have in your bag. ... Sporting equipment probably would be better.

Living near the Canadian Border, my friends and I cross frequently, often to attend tournements on the other side of the border. We always recommend telling the border officials that we have "athletic" or "sporting" equipment rather than "weapons" (ok - pull the car over there...) or even "swords".

The original question is a good one. I've been told to refer to my foils and epees as "weapons", not "swords", but I've never heard the origin of this differentiation. I try, but I expect I slip up from time to time. The tern "weapon", just seems to be too generic to me. A weapon can be anything from a knife, to a sword, to a hand gun, to a rifle, to a howitzer, to a bomb, to whatever. If "sword" is inappropriate, is there a reasonably descriptive term (other than "weapon") that one can use to refer to foils, epees, and sabres collectively?