Foilists: What are you hoping for in terms of timings for next season?

[dramamine]

A poll has not been attached, just give me your opinions.

Lately I have really been just wishing the timings stay the same. OK, the new timings aren't perfect, but I don't hate them either. Everyone's fencing is improving, I have the Vancouver World Cup DVD and I see the occasional flick, and so far not a single touch not registered because of the apparently terrible timings. Way more parry ripostes than counterattacks, although counterattacks are certainly more prevalent, and much fewer bouts are slow moving than everyone has been complaining about.

I'm just sick of not knowing what the hell to expect, so personally I hope the timings either permanently stay the way they are, or permanently go back to the old. Although I have to admit I am starting to like the new timings more (and I was most definately a flicker).

So to sum it up, basically I'm hoping the FIE makes a damn decision and sticks with it, so I can know what to expect. What does everyone else want, now that we've had these timings for a year now?

[OROD]

I'd like the timings to either go back to what they were, or that they fix the contact time so that straight attacks land... and I mean land ALL the time, not 60% of the time, or 70%, or whatever.

And then, once the do one of those two things, that they stop dicking around with the timings. Is that so much to ask for?


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[Welted 24/7]

Although I'm not a foilist, it would be nice if they focused on something other than trying to eliminate the flick, because it's pretty clear that that's all the current timings were designed to do to the extent of saying "Screw it" to making them work otherwise.

[mrbiggs]

I have to say that I'm looking for a comprimise, because I like neither the old nor the new timings.

[Black Jeebus]

I would like to see straight attacks land a little more often, but mostly I would like no more screwing around with crap!

[Cerian]

An increase in the debounce time would be very nice. Straight attacks not registering is unacceptable.

[akaiyuki]

I've gotten pretty used to the new timing also. And I do like the new timing more than the old. Either way, I do wish the timings to stay permanent. Other than the removal of off target lights, I'm in favor of keeping everything the way it is now.

[dramamine]

Everyone still repeats that straight attacks don't go off. I find this interesting. Does anyone have any video of this happening, and if you experience this problem, what brand of machines have you noticed it happening on?

The reason I ask is because although I certainly had a lot of trouble turning out lights when the timings first came into effect, once I adjusted my touch and made sure my equipment was always in good repair I noticed no problems. I have watched many high level foil fencers in the last year and seen no evidence of this happening, either. I use Favero machines. Maybe that is the reason? I have heard and also noticed some discrepancies with the boxes.

[akaiyuki]

I've had a few instances where straight attack did not go off - but that's certainly no where near 30% or 40% of my attacks. In fact, I haven't had any problems with it recently that I can recall. From what I've seen from the fencers that I've fenced, most of them have adjusted to the new timing pretty well. I hear far less complain about the new timing now. But of course, I don't know if that's true everywhere.

[OROD]

I've had a few instances where straight attack did not go off - but that's certainly no where near 30% or 40% of my attacks. In fact, I haven't had any problems with it recently that I can recall. From what I've seen from the fencers that I've fenced, most of them have adjusted to the new timing pretty well. I hear far less complain about the new timing now. But of course, I don't know if that's true everywhere.

Akai, I'm sure you hear less complaining now because at some point people get tired of complaining, especially when it's clear that it doesnt matter how much you complain. We can come on here every day and post complaint after comlaint and it wont matter at all to the FIE.

Next, someone mentioned the whole "I adjusted my fencing and now my straight attacks land" B.S. Here's the thing, the faster you do your straight attack the less likely it is to set off the light. Better fencers will do faster attacks and so they will experience this more... so telling us that your attacks land more now is not something that is really all that impressive, understand?

I know personally that straight attacks not registering happens often. I've posted enough about it already, so I dont want to keep on *****ing about it. The FIE needs to fix it, and that's all there is to it. I'm not the only one who thinks so, the top fencers in the world do also. That is why they staged the protest at the world cup in Korea. I spoke with Ralf Bissdorf and he told me that although he approved overall of the direction the FIE wanted to go, he felt their implementation with these timings was a bad one.

Eliminating the white (off target) light is another matter. Personally I disaprove of this. The off-target light serves an important job in foil, it enforces right of way. Without it foil moves even closer to epee. I dont want that, and there's no reason to do it. It's not difficult to explain the concept of on-target and off-target to spectators. Really, it's not rocket science! And it will not help foils popularity. Again, trying to make all these changes to improve foils popularity is just stupid. If simplifying the rules would make the weapon more popular, then epee would be on TV all the time.


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[wflaschka]

Fencing is possible with the timings, but I'm not sure it's as much fun. I'd like to see the tip-depression timing relaxed by several miliseconds, so that: Elite fencers get back some delicacy and nuance in the way they hit; and everybody gets back reliable flicks. The block-timing should stay the same, so that irrationally slow marches and pulled-hand attacks continue to be unsafe. IMHO, with 20/20 hindsight, the block-time change would have been sufficient to meet the FIE's desire to make foil more foily.

For the other rules -- bib- or arm-as-target wouldn't be necessary because we could flick to the back. The no-off-target light would be very fun and interesting (and cheap in terms of not needing a grounded strip), but not worth the aggravation at this point.

[Feraud]

Everyone still repeats that straight attacks don't go off. I find this interesting. Does anyone have any video of this happening, and if you experience this problem, what brand of machines have you noticed it happening on?

The reason I ask is because although I certainly had a lot of trouble turning out lights when the timings first came into effect, once I adjusted my touch and made sure my equipment was always in good repair I noticed no problems. I have watched many high level foil fencers in the last year and seen no evidence of this happening, either. I use Favero machines. Maybe that is the reason? I have heard and also noticed some discrepancies with the boxes.

I was of the same opinion, and fence regularly with the Favero machines. The incidence of failed straight attacks seems to be very low. Then the other night I tried an Eigertek box and, wow… the bout was almost a joke because so many perfectly straight hits just didn’t do anything. This wasn’t fast high level fencing either, I was just practicing with a beginning fencer who was a woman wearing a chest protector, we could hardly finish the bout because there were so many failed hits.
The difference between the two machines was quite noticeable, it’s gotta be something with the software.

[Feraud]

Removing the off-target would be a terrible disaster for foil. If the attacking fencer couldn’t count on getting a white light if they missed the target then nobody would risk making attacks. Especially in combination with the new timings which already favor counterattacks. The whole game would become a stalemate with neither fencer risking any offensive action. Trying to remedy that problem by enlarging the target is also ridiculous since it would turn the weapon into mini-epee.

I hope they keep something similar to the new timings but fix the technical bugs, probably bring the debounce time down a few milliseconds but not return to the old one.

[mrbiggs]

Everyone still repeats that straight attacks don't go off. I find this interesting. Does anyone have any video of this happening, and if you experience this problem, what brand of machines have you noticed it happening on?

The reason I ask is because although I certainly had a lot of trouble turning out lights when the timings first came into effect, once I adjusted my touch and made sure my equipment was always in good repair I noticed no problems. I have watched many high level foil fencers in the last year and seen no evidence of this happening, either. I use Favero machines. Maybe that is the reason? I have heard and also noticed some discrepancies with the boxes.

I had the exact opposite problem. When the new timings first came out, very few straight attacks failed to register, but over the last few months, it's been happening increasingly often. The only idea I have is that I'm fencing differently, or the increased heat or humidity have something to do with it.

I would never say 30-40%, but definately 3 or 4 touches per 15 touch bout fail to go off. I've also noticed that they tend to be simultaneous attacks.

These are the new SG boxes (with only 2 lights) if anyone's wondering.

Oh, and properly taped blades have fewer problems.

[Potemkin]

That is an interesting observation about the difference in the scoring machines. At our club, we have the Favero boxes, and it is rare that a straight attack / reposte fails to set off the box. Last weekend, at a tournament held at another club in the area, I saw and experienced a far greater number of straight hits that did not register. I am not sure what model their boxes were, but they were not the Favero boxes.

Does anyone know what timing differences or other coding variation there is between the manufacturers?

Potemkin

[dramamine]

I don't know, but again, like I said. I want to see video evidence! 3 or 4 hits in a 15? How come I have the entire Vancouver world cup DVD and I didn't see it happen once? Or is flicking the middle of Stoulkaline's back, Joppich is nailing the target as usual, even with a fast closing of distance, no problems from the other Russians, I don't see it.

What about the La Coruna men's foil that was up here? This was the "early adjustment" phase, the fencing was boring as hell, I know, but again there are several hours of footage and not a single instance of no straight attacks going off. Unless I am blind, in which case let me know.

And no, I don't hit any softer than I did before, but come on, they changed the contact time drastically. Don't you think you're going to have to adjust the way you hit? It is a matter of finishing strong, but without such a huge bend in the blade (for instance, on simul. attacks, if both fencers straighten their arms completely, as fast as possible doing fast step lunges, maybe the closing of distance that fast is too much for the contact time). That happened to me at first, and then I thought about it.. You don't ram your blade 10 inches through the guy when you're infighting, it's excessive. So when the distance is close, what makes you think you need to hit so hard to leave your blade bent 10 inches up?

Now I still get some no lighters that I can't explain, but then again, that happened with the old timings too, and usually when I "can't explain" it I go check out my tip tape after the bout or something similar and find that it wasn't the fault of the box at all.

Maybe us Canadians just suck. Maybe nobody took the Vancouver world cup seriously and they were just playing around and so they didn't have any problems. Apparently a guy from the U.K. (Keith Smith I think? High rated FIE Ref? Dunno) went to the FISU and said the fencing was classical and very good, where Japan beat Italy!

I am honestly not trying to sound disputatious. I just feel like I'm blind or something, with everyone complaining about the timing and me wondering what the hell they're all *****ing about?

[dramamine]

By the way I'm not trying to speak in favour of the new timings. I just don't see the *TECHNICAL* problems with them that everyone else is talking about.

[noodle]

debounce to 8.

[wflaschka]

A long time ago Craig made a call for video like this. I don't think any was forthcoming; we certainly didn't see any video on this site. World Cup video doesn't show this happening (I only found one in the 05 Paris CIP). La Coruna doesn't show the problem (I've viewed indiv and team on DVD), and Venice doesn't show the problem (individual bouts on DVD).

Ferdinando (?) of Portugal pointed out that different boxes handle the tip-down timing differently, so the problem my vary from brand to brand, which can be fixed. In local comps like the CCO the problem didn't happen to me, but it happened to one of my opponents without materially changing getting my b*tt kicked.

I have two guesses why we hear less timing-related complaining now. The first (cynical) guess is that the FIE has promised to revisit and possibly relax the timings -- this quiets the opposition and lets the changes "soak in" so that fewer will want to rock the boat with another change later. It may be a political ploy but I really hope the timings change again.

The second guess is that most fencers have been able to update their fencing to accommodate the boxes. After nearly a year with the new timings, when I hear about a fencer who still can't turn on a light -- that is not all that impressive. The whole "I'm so good I can't make a touch" argument is getting worn around the edges, especially given all the good fencers who have pragmatically updated their technique to make things work.

To add to dramamine's list, there is Attely, Le Pechoux, and Beaudan of France (who prospered under the timings and got on the team); Cassara and Sanzo -- these are more who seem to have a handle on the timings, whether they like them or not.

[garyhayenga]

Everyone still repeats that straight attacks don't go off. I find this interesting. Does anyone have any video of this happening, and if you experience this problem, what brand of machines have you noticed it happening on?

The reason I ask is because although I certainly had a lot of trouble turning out lights when the timings first came into effect, once I adjusted my touch and made sure my equipment was always in good repair I noticed no problems. I have watched many high level foil fencers in the last year and seen no evidence of this happening, either. I use Favero machines. Maybe that is the reason? I have heard and also noticed some discrepancies with the boxes.

This happens a *lot*. I had someone hit me 4 times in six touches Wednesday, solid straight hits, I got one light counter-attacks. Unfortunately two of them were off-target. He changed blades after the first two. After the next two we decided to switch from the Favero box to the SG-12. Out of the next 6 touches he only had 2 straight hits that didn't register.

The only circuit I went to was Chattanooga, and I don't recall what brand of machines they were using there but I saw many straight hits that didn't go off. One bout Boaz Ellis hit his opponent with 9 solid straight attacks and won 5-4.

The timing is broken. There is no doubt about it.

gary hayenga