Rule thread

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Ok, the idea of this thread is to "quiz" people trying to pass the written portion of the referee test. I'll start


What is a reprise?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

An attack made immediately after you have returned to on guard.

[keith]

well I thought that was a continuation of the attack through the on guarde position

[edew]

That's probably a remise.

[keith]

well a remise is any action that continues the attack in the same line so maybe it is, or maybe it isn't.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'm just going by the rule book, as far as my definitions go. Someone elses turn.

[Grey]

Let's start a debate-able topic that may degenerate completely.

What constitutes an Attack into Preparation and give a detailed example.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Grey

What constitutes an Attack into Preparation and give a detailed example.

Might I suggest the following?

Czajkowski Article on "Preparation"

[dramamine]

There is no such thing as an attack in preparation. The correct call is attack and counter attack. Preparation is merely a term used for clarification. IMO.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Might I suggest the following?

Czajkowski Article on "Preparation"

As mentioned in another thread, Czajkowski did not write that article.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by dramamine

There is no such thing as an attack in preparation. The correct call is attack and counter attack. Preparation is merely a term used for clarification. IMO.

Why is there a hand sign, then? Also, preparation needs a distinction because it allows the fencers to know how the referee saw the action. "Attack, counter attack" is a very general call.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Why is there a hand sign, then? Also, preparation needs a distinction because it allows the fencers to know how the referee saw the action. "Attack, counter attack" is a very general call.

The answer is clarification. I didn't say it wasn't necessary, just that the call in reality is attack counter attack. A preparation is not an attack. In fact I think the use of the term "attack in preparation" in itself has caused part of the confusion about the application of the rules defining the attack.

There is a hand signal for the same reason there is a hand signal for the parry. In foil, the only way to make a riposte is following a parry. So wouldn't "riposte" be a sufficient call? I mean obviously there was a parry if there was a riposte. Again, clarification... (which I find unnecessary).

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by dramamine

The answer is clarification. I didn't say it wasn't necessary, just that the call in reality is attack counter attack. A preparation is not an attack. In fact I think the use of the term "attack in preparation" in itself has caused part of the confusion about the application of the rules defining the attack.

There is a hand signal for the same reason there is a hand signal for the parry. In foil, the only way to make a riposte is following a parry. So wouldn't "riposte" be a sufficient call? I mean obviously there was a parry if there was a riposte. Again, clarification... (which I find unnecessary).

Gotcha, mostly.

[dramamine]

I dunno. Sometimes I find the most clear way to let a fencer know that I don't buy his BS running down the strip with a bent arm his attack is just by looking right at him when his opponent attacks in his prep and saying "attack, counter attack. attack touche".

Who really knows though. Sometimes I say attack in prep too.

[bigdawg2121]

Yeah, basically everything other than attack/counterattack is either clarification, or semantics...however, unless you are an excellent referree, and well known to athletes, coaches, etc. you can't sit there all day and only give the signal for the attack. The reason we have signals for things like missed attacks and incorrect attacks (i.e. preparation) is so we can explain the phrase with our hand signals the same way we explain in words.

To clarify (in case it comes up) attack-parry-riposte could be simplified to attack. The initial attack technically ended with the parry, the riposte is by definition the attack after the parry. (Also why they have the same signal)...This can be applied to more or less any imaginable action. It's also why you'll see alot of the better refs kinda chill and make one or two signals max...but you gotta get there first.

[Inquartata]

Unless I am misreading the analysis, I have to disagree. There can be no counterattack in the absence of an attack to which it can be counter. Thus is A is not attacking but only preparing, B cannot be counterattacking.

It would strike me as odd in this case to say OTOH that B is attacking and A is counterattacking---since in many cases he will be hit before he even begins to extend and at least in sabre may not even get a light...

[swordsen]

Ah but that is what they are saying. (And I agree), the preparation is not an attack (clearly) thus the attack "in preparation" is the attack that A's action is a counter attack launched into B's attack (in A's preparation)

[Inquartata]

Still, I don't see how an action, even if not an attack, begun by A before B begins his can be called counter into the latter...

And---if A never begins to extend he is not making a counterattck either, he's just marching forward...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Still, I don't see how an action, even if not an attack, begun by A before B begins his can be called counter into the latter...

And---if A never begins to extend he is not making a counterattck either, he's just marching forward...

I think that his point was that A's extension at the end was a reaction to B's true attack. A's motion forward was no different from A standing in one spot and waiting to be hit, then extending.

I think that "attack in prep" makes it easier to understand for everyone involved, though.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Still, I don't see how an action, even if not an attack, begun by A before B begins his can be called counter into the latter...

And---if A never begins to extend he is not making a counterattck either, he's just marching forward...

A pushes forward with a bent arm.

B Attacks.

A "finishes", as most people would put it. In actuality A starts an attack (late). Therefore a counter attack.

Attack/Counter attack. If B attacks and A never starts/gets locked out, whatever, then it's attack touche.

I didn't mean it's always attack counterattack. Just often AiP is two lights so I used that as an example.

[Inquartata]

OK, I see what you're saying.