Coaching help needed!!!!

**Purple Fencer** · 07-19-2002 03:21 PM

Here's the skinny.

There's a relatively new fencer at SwordPlay who, in addition to her foil lessons, is starting to take an interest in sabre. I was asked to show her what I know, and did so yesterday. She seems to like sabre, and may even want to compete in it eventually.

Here's the problem...we have no sabre coach a SwordPlay. The only qualified coach who knows the weapon is Derek Cotton, but I don't know if he has room in his schedule to fit her in. He's also out of town right now, so I couldn;t ask him anyway. The fencer looks like she wants me to coach her, which is fine...but I have no expreience as a coach; it's very different from just fencing. Additionally, as I haven't taken lessons myself, I;m not in a position to learn from my own coach and stay one step ahead of my "student". This may change this season, as I plan to finally start taking foil lessons, but those are different form sabre.

Any tips from the saber folk out that I can use so I don't totally screw this poor kid up?

**mfp** · 07-19-2002 03:49 PM

What does your question have to do with Armory?

**counter riposte** · 07-19-2002 03:53 PM

I've had Derek as a coach, and believe me, he is good. If Derek can fit her anywhere in his schedule, it would definitely benefit her as a future saberer...

Unfortunately, the best thing I can recommend for now, if she does want to continue to fence with an instructor is to fence foil until a spot opens in saber. The right of way rules and footwork are essentially the same as that of sabre, and if she gets down derobement in foil, she can be particularly deadly to the "pure saberer" who will beat the line like Pavlov's dog will salivate. (I confess to that incidentally, that line is like candy to me.)

If she insists to join the dark side

and fence saber totally, start with basics. Footwork, footwork, footwork

, 3,4,5 perries and ripostes until a spot opens. If all else fails, just play with her and give advice as you would any other fencer. (This incidentally was how I began my shift to the dark side. Some guy at the club showed me a sabre, and I thought is was SOOOO much funner than foil, I actually practiced head cuts and chest cuts against our fencing dummy "Buzz" while the foil class was going on.)

**Purple Fencer** · 07-19-2002 05:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mfp:
What does your question have to do with Armory?<hr /></blockquote>I'm a dork...I thought I'd moved to the general section before I put this up.

**Inquartata** · 07-19-2002 06:30 PM

I'm like you, Sam. Though I fence sabre primarily, I feel all at sea trying to teach it. I talk too much, the student's eyes glaze over, I can't think of what in particular to show 'em...it's not good, since like you the coaches at my salle are all of the foil-epee ilk, and if we are to have sabre fencers someone has to teach novices...

Anyway, I recommend getting Maestro Selberg's sabre lesson tapes if you can still find them, or if anyone else has made more recent ones. They'll at least provide you with things to show them and a rough progression of technique. Whenever I am dragooned into giving a lesson I pretty much copy what Selber does on his tapes ( updating for changes in modern style, of course---his seems quaint after all this time, the outlawing of the fleche, etc...they are pre-electric ).

**counter riposte** · 07-23-2002 02:14 PM

Why don't you ask Derek?

**Purple Fencer** · 07-23-2002 07:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by counter riposte:
Why don't you ask Derek?<hr /></blockquote>'Cause he's not always here, and the LAST thing I need from Derek is him laughing at me trying to teach someone!

As it turns out, I had another session with this fencer tonight, and it went a lot better...spent it working on her lateral parries and riposts to the head. She learned a few things...like remembering to turn the guard to protect her knuckles...I'm sure the bruises will heal!

**arcon** · 07-23-2002 10:24 PM

Dont do Sabre or coach it. That will all change later this fall but until then cant
really help. I managed to watch many of the sabre Gold medal bouts......it was
awesome to say the least. It did spark my interest in the weapon.
My advice......dont teach a weapon if youre not confident in your abilitys in that
weapon.

the Arcon

**latenight** · 07-24-2002 04:01 AM

Yeah, Obi-Wan thought he was ready to teach sabre, and look what happened to poor little Anakin!

;-)

**Purple Fencer** · 07-24-2002 07:47 AM

I can fence with it....my prob's my confidence as a teacher. It's getting better.

**oiuyt** · 07-24-2002 08:40 AM

Sam, if you're starting to move into coaching and feel less than fully confident in your abilities try checking out next year's Coaches College. Granted it won't help you at this point for this season, but I think it's very worthwhile in the long run. Even if you don't expect to be doing much coaching it can't hurt.

-B

(typing from the OTC where he's between sessions for CC)

**135711** · 07-25-2002 02:07 PM

sam, you soundlike a pretty nice guy. i don't fence saber. but here's my feeling. why not continue to coach her in foil until she gets really good, in other words, let her first develop a superior skill in something, then when she's stronger, she may wish to pick up another weapon ---- patience is a virtue. it may take her five years. hate to say it, but true.

[ 07-25-2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: 135711 ]

**Inquartata** · 07-25-2002 05:57 PM

"i don't fence sabre"---That says it all. No one who has caught the sabre bug would consent to keep doing foil instead if there were a way out. Not even ( or perhaps especially not ) "for her own good".

You have to let people "follow their bliss", not try to hammer them all into the same round hole.

**Corvus Rex** · 07-26-2002 10:29 AM

Hi Sam,

How goes the biz? Feel free to P.M. me for some help if you want.

When is the next time you are coming out to Conejo??

**edew** · 07-26-2002 11:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
sam, you soundlike a pretty nice guy. i don't fence saber. but here's my feeling. why not continue to coach her in foil until she gets really good, in other words, let her first develop a superior skill in something, then when she's stronger, she may wish to pick up another weapon ---- patience is a virtue. it may take her five years. hate to say it, but true.<hr /></blockquote>I think Sam is suggesting that he's not so comfortable with coaching any weapon at all, especially sabre. Why not suggest she go to Westside/Gascon and work with Jr or Don Costin? I think the days of hoarding members without being able to provide for them is long gone. Here in the Bay Area, clubs are indeed doing that, handing fencers from one club to another for coaching. They can keep their club membership, if that's important.

Basically, the coaches become itinerant teachers, except people go to them, and not the other way around.

And, it builds goodwill among clubs. If you help one club, they'll help you back. Fencing must change the mindset from
"my club, my members, I don't want competition"
to
"many clubs, many fencers, they validate my club."

**Purple Fencer** · 07-26-2002 12:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:
 Why not suggest she go to Westside/Gascon and work with Jr or Don Costin? <hr /></blockquote>I think it comes down to a matter of travel there. The fencer lives in Burbank, which is where SwordPlay is. Westside's a long way away, in terms of travel time (this IS LA, remember).

Right now I'm working on simple actions like a parry-riposte. She make the parry well enough, but her arm goes back to on guard before doing hte riposte, ad in sabre, that's a big mistake...ya gotta go right for the riposte.

I felt a lot better after the second time with her, which I call the first real lesson. I saw some progress. I'll take her as far as I can (which probably ain't far!) and then suggest to move to someone else...maybe Derek Cotton, since he's there a couple nights a week. he's giving epee lessons to one kid, and he won the section sabre title twice in a row, so he could certainly teach her a thing or two.

he's a lot meaner than I am, however!

**Purple Fencer** · 07-26-2002 12:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Corvus Rex:
Hi Sam,

How goes the biz? Feel free to P.M. me for some help if you want.

When is the next time you are coming out to Conejo??<hr /></blockquote>Well...it's a tad slow right now, but it's off-season and I expected it.

Probably be out at Conejo soon...need to talk to Phil Hareff about the dates. I'll let'cha know,

**135711** · 07-26-2002 03:41 PM

i have picked up a saber now and then for fun, mucking around in the salle, and it is a very tempting weapon, however, i realized it's very specilized and i would need really good training for a long period of time to do it justice. it's just very different. i personally see it as a weapon deserving more strength, and if you can fence it full out, great, but i think i've seen, in womens saber a sort of hesitation or holding back, that doesn't do the weapon justice.

[ 07-26-2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: 135711 ]

**counter riposte** · 07-26-2002 03:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
in womens saber a sort of hesitation or holding back, that doesn't do the weapon justice.<hr /></blockquote>DISAGREED... Some of the best fencing I have ever seen is in Women's sabre. (Which incidentally is also criminal since it is now a mixed sport in the olympics.

) You get to see the actions a lot better. The action is cleaner because the hold on the weapon is much lighter and don't necessarily continue on the attack once parryed. Overall, you get to see alot more action, thought and work in Women's Sabre.

**servdragoon** · 07-26-2002 04:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> i personally see it as a weapon deserving more strength <hr /></blockquote>If your talking about mental strength then i agree, but if you are talking about physical strength, not really. You dont have to have big muscles to fence saber.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> in womens saber a sort of hesitation or holding back, that doesn't do the weapon justice. <hr /></blockquote>go here: <a href="http://www.fencingfootage.com" target="_blank">www.fencingfootage.com</a>
watch the women's sabre footage, im sure it will change your mind.

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