Respect of the rich and the poor

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Do you respect a fencer if they're privileged, born into a wealthy family/family that is willing to pay their way, fence at a good club, have a good coach, and are successful?

Or do you respect them more if they're not as privileged, they work their way, maybe don’t fence at such a good club, maybe they don't have access to a coach as much, and are still successful.

This came up in a discussion about whether or not privileged fencers with a lot of opportunity deserve the same respect of fencers not so privileged

[Inquartata]

I respect ability.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I respect ability.

Word.

In vending at tornaments both local USFA and scholastic, I've come across all types...I make no distinction by anything other than the fencer's ability and personality. I've had both privilidged and somewhat underprivilidged kids with wonderful manners, truly appreciative of the fact that I'm there and willing to learn any armoring tips I may have...and I've had people from both sides of hte fence who think their crap don't stink.

[Welted 24/7]

I have to break the chain of sitting on the fence and say I'd respect the one who didn't have as much but is still just as successful. Everything else aside, it's just more impressive if somebody comes from less-than-ideal circumstances and can still make it big.

Of course, the work still has to be done- being rich and a member of a great club don't automatically ensure being a great fencer. However, it does give you a pretty big leg up on everybody who ISN'T in your situation, to have everything right at your fingertips. These are people who never have to worry about things like paying for lessons, or if they'll even GET a lesson that week, or if they'll even get to go fence that week.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I respect ability.

That's exactly what I was going to say... well done As long as a person's easy to get on with, then I'll get on with them; if they're willing to fence, then I'll fence them too - doesn't matter who they are or what their mummy and daddy do for a living.

[RebelFencer]

*shrugs* What does it matter? All the money in the world can't buy you talent or a work ethic..so regardless of their money or what coaches they could afford--if they're good they still had to work just like you and me. What really irks me are newbie fencers decked out in top of the line FIE gear, etc. I agree that if you can afford it--more power to you--but I also believe in a little bit of paying your dues and suffering a little first.

[Mo]

I too respect ability.
BTW, things are not always what they seem. I Know many kids who are at good clubs who used to be a not so good clubs. Their parents sacraficed and made changes for them.
There are kids at our club who have everything and still are not that hot of fencers. Same coaches, much more money but not the same performance level.
Sometimes the parents can work things out for kids, sometimes they can't.
In many fencing families, the fencer is supported by parents and grandparents, it is a three generation thing.
When kids are working very hard and the relatives see that, it is worth the time and effort and many families will support a kid's talent.
My inlaws supported my dd's fencing for two years. Without them, things would not be where they are now.
I really don't know any highly successful fencers who haven't worked their butts off.
They all deserve respect.

[fencerontheline]

I agree with many of the above statements.


Just to add some of my thoughts on the matter:
To fence well requires ability, skill, and determination as well as a certain amount of resources (fiscal and geographical).

If you're born into a family that can't provide you with adequate resources (like mine: I've worked to pay for my own fencing, since I started), then you find a way to make due with what you have.

Accomplishment is accomplishment, regardless of who or where it comes from. I'll respect both the rich fencer that makes it big as well as the poor fencer who pulls themself up by the bootstraps and becomes a success. In the end, both have achieved something great.


If one is a have-not, resenting the haves comes almost instinctively... but that instinct is one that should not endure. You cannot and should not blame someone for being fortunate.

[bmcfencer]

I think in some ways being privaledged could be a disadvantage. It seems to me that people aren't as invested in something when it holds no cost for them, that a little bit of a struggle adds more zest and makes it seem more worthwhile. I mean, it's the same way with intelligence and academics. The REALLY smart kids often don't have to work for the grades, and so they don't learn how to work and they don't really care. They don't have the same sort of pride in their accomplishments. One of the smartest guys I've ever met is now a bum living on the streets, and it certainly isn't because of a lack of opportunity. It's true that regardless of your socioeconomic status you have to work to be a good fencer, but I think that those of us who have to stuggle to find time and money to fence maybe appreciate the sport a little differently.

And even on more general terms- I'm glad that everything I earn I get through my own merit, not because of my parent's connections or money. It's frightening, sometimes, but it's also a little exhilerating...... And I consider myself very well off, in the general scheme of things.

[achilleus]

I respect the person.

If the person is hardworking, and an all around nice guy I respect them. Regardless of how successful they are at fencing.

If the person is *******, regardless of how much of anything that have, whether it be talent, money or ability, I tend not to respect them.

If we're talking about respect from a purely fencing standpoint, then I have to say I respect results and ability.

[wrdbrn]

I watched a recreational fencer get 8-0 on Moss in the 2nd round at JO's... as long as it was her and the mask and the blade and the strip, she was out there doing her job. The minute that the crowd and everyone got all caught up in the bout, the less experienced fencer got rattled... lost by a very respectable score. Note, our twice a week fencer's dad spent all of Arlington JO's in the hospital undergoing emergency surgery and having blood infusions.... she was just SLIGHTLY stressed. I wonder to this moment and always will if the other bouts that distracted everyone had lasted another 3 minutes what the outcome would of been. All of this is to say, you never know where an opponent is coming from. IF in fact more that half of this game is mental, then the ability to perform at the drop of a hat is also a factor... Muscle memory.... like a ballerina learns at the barre.. must be important.. So to segway back to the original point of this thread... you can have the best gear, the best coach, the most hours in the gym, but if you are having a bad day, or have no training in out to "suck it up and go on with the show"... all your investment could meet a bitter bitter end. Since I am enduring a "special on Elvis" which my husband is currently watching a bit of... there is a good example. a truck driver in 3 months went to the top of the charts. Garth Brooks and his first wife were in the Burger King in Green Hills (nashville) where they had just used the last of their money to fill up their truck and buy a "meal" to head back to Oklahoma on... before the counter girl delivered the fries... the call came that he had been signed. Before Mohammad Ali was Ali.. he was Cassius Clay and a very poor... Whoopi Goldburg, and Madonna both came out of the welfare system. and Oprah herself wasnt exactly born with a silver spoon.

Its not what you have its what you do with what you have.. .need I post the parable of the talents?... o good and faithful servant...

[ThatReallyHurt]

I'm all for respecting ability, but I definitely lose some respect for those who are poor winners, regardless of how they got to the top.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

What really irks me are newbie fencers decked out in top of the line FIE gear, etc. I agree that if you can afford it--more power to you--but I also believe in a little bit of paying your dues and suffering a little first.

Do you also get irked by people who drive Volvos without "paying their dues" in less safe cars first?

FIE gear is the best protective gear, and wearing it makes one well-protected, not flashy.

Wearing less safe equipment is not "paying your dues" -- getting your @$$ whooped at tournaments is paying your dues. As for "suffering a little," I hope you're thinking along the lines of wearing smelly club equipment, and not a more dangerous situation brought about by less-than-ideal protective gear. In which case, I'd say your opinion ought to extend to newbies in their own equipment, period, instead of being limited to those with the good stuff.

[El Chucko]

Sportsmanship.

I respect any opponent who is a gentleman/lady.

[wrdbrn]

Im not sure, i will venture a guess, a volvo maybe safe (frankly the thought of them makes me tired-i have a brother in law that is a broken record in extolling their virtues), but there are plenty of other safe cars out there for instance:

according to esurance.com
Light Passenger Cars
This category includes models from Chevrolet, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Mercedes, and Toyota. Of the ones that have been rated, the 2005 Hyundai Accent 4-door with side air bags fares well, earning 4 stars for frontal protection, rollover resistance, side protection in the rear seat, and 5 stars for side protection in the front seat.

Compact Passenger Cars
This list of vehicles includes models from: Acura, BMW, Chevrolet, Dodge, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, MINI Cooper, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Pontiac, Saturn, Suzuki, Toyota, and Volkswagen. The 2005 Honda Civic 2-door with side airbag fared well in this category, earning 5 stars for frontal and side protection and 4 stars for rollover resistance.

When you find yourself alone on a pedestal you are an easy and understandable target. Or perhaps the adage, I study my competition, so I know how to keep them at bay.

[sabreman]

Fact is that the talent pool shrinks when you eliminate people because they don't have money to keep training or even to get into the sport. I am a product of the NJ high school system. I never had to pay for fencing until after college. I kept going but many just give up. If you talk to many ex Soviet Block fencers they can't understand why anyone pay out of their pockets to fence (but they will sure take the money). Look at the talent that the PWF has brought to the sport. IMHO need to have more programs like that all over the country.

[Li'l Bebe]

I respect the poor fencer more than the rich one. Yes, they both have to have work ethic and self-discipline, but for me, I'm impressed more when someone comes from a club where there aren't the greatest fencers ever. Because then you have to find out tricks and strategies more yourself, and correct bad form that you've been taught on your own. Also, some people come from clubs where there are over 40 fencers all trying to get the coach's attention. Some of the richer fencers have their own private coach, or a team coach, who entirely focuses on them. Like for me, I have never gotten a personal lesson from my coach, because she has over 45 people who she's coach over, so I always get my lessons from more experianced fencers. The lessons are good, but it's not the same as your coach. If you get more personal attention from a really good coach, it can really help you succeed faster. So I have a higher respect for the people who work more on their own, and don't have that kind of support.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Li'l Bebe

The lessons are good, but it's not the same as your coach. If you get more personal attention from a really good coach, it can really help you succeed faster. So I have a higher respect for the people who work more on their own, and don't have that kind of support.

that is true.. you can tell the difference between lessons from a "coach" vs someone who knows more than you but is just helping. you can benefit from both but, certainly one more than the other.

in the case you mentioned, you can help your cause by communicating to the coach that you are deserving of lessons over the other fencers. this doesn't necessarily have to be verbal. it could be that you come to practice more than the others, or showing up earlier and staying later...coaches don't just teach anyone for no reason, nor should they. they teach those that really want to learn. i'm pretty sure that all those 45 fencers have different dedication levels. that coach shouldn't be giving lessons to everyone equally. i think the most dedicated and willing students should get more attention (i.e. not necessarily more talented, the more DEDICATED and WILLING).

[lindajdunn]

The one line I heard more from my father than any other -- usually stated while denying some request I'd made -- was: You appreciate it more if you work for it.

Whether the fencer got there in a Volvo or a 1990 Cavalier, he/she had to get there by working. Sacrifices vary and appearances can be deceptive. I respect any fencer who works at being a better fencer.

And I note that I say this as someone who had to go to college part-time while working and was divorced with two small kids. I know what it means to work. My diploma doesn't state anything different from a friend who got there by (imho) easier means.

I think victory might taste a little sweeter to the one who works harder, but I've no basis for comparison. I just tell myself this to make myself feel better. [grin]

[sabreman]

It is not just about ability you need great coaching to be a great fencer. The problem is who is going to pay for it? Do you think Smart and Lee would be in fencing if there wasn't a PWF to help pay the way? I know in the DC area there is nothing like PWF or NJ or NYC high school fencing. You have to have big bucks to pay for lessons plus travel and equipment costs. This limits the talent pool.