Passata Sotto question

[InfernoXV]

Hiho Chaps!

A wee question about the Passata Sotto in sport fencing-

Now, I used it quite effectively in my Sabre game against an opponent who was doing a flunge and wasn't expecting me to do a Passata Sotto. Naturally, as it was Sabre, my hand was in pronation.

Now, if one were doing the move with a foil, would one's hand be in pronation, supination or somewhere between? They all seem equally natural options to me. Also, would this differ with whether one was using Italian or French foil?

Many thanks in advance.

Yours,

Edward

[swordsen]

I really don't think it would matter very much at all. Thinkig of the few times I have done the thing my hand usually goes into extreme pronation, i.e. rotaing to the left so far (I am right handed) as to almost be in supination.

[ViewtifulMisho]

Well (and please forgive my lack of indentation), the question of your proposition, the one about supination and pronation, emits inspiration of thought-provocation, and is well worthy of inquisition, as is the answer (or answers, as may be the occasion) worthy of interrogation, investigation, and examination.

In any publication that describes the definition of supination, we see that the appendage, known by the appellation "hand," must undergo adduction and inversion in order to face an upward (in opposition of the foundation) or forward (in cooperation with your orientation) direction.

It is important we embrace, without apprehension, the acceptation of the indication of this signification, for its correlation and association to application could not otherwise be awarded to appropriate appreciation, apperception, comprehension, distinction, and United Nations.

[schlager7]

Originally Posted by swordsen

I really don't think it would matter very much at all. Thinkig of the few times I have done the thing my hand usually goes into extreme pronation, i.e. rotaing to the left so far (I am right handed) as to almost be in supination.

I have to agree. Both for myself and others I've watched. Many start supinated or between, but the action just tends to make you turn your hand to extreme pronation.

Same results, btw, in a classical class I took using an Italian foil, except that I started pronated, as well.

[Bryn Ralph]

The passata sotto is a counter-attack that operates against both simple and compound attacks that end in the outside high line. As to hand position while executing the passata sotto, it is obvious that the point must land in a low line of the adversary which would require a right-hander to use extreme pronation thus bending the blade inverted, so to speak, as contrasted with a simple thrust causing the blade to bend vertical upon the target.

Using this movement in sabre would be ill-advised; mostly used with the foil -- rarely with the epee.

[gladius]

The original question as posted by InfernoXV shows confusion about tactics in different weapons. Certain actions are effective in one weapon and useless or even counterproductive in another, no matter how correctly executed in their form.

The position of the hand doesn't really matter much in the "passata sotto." Bryn Ralph gives a correct description and explanation of the passata sotto.

It doesn't make much sense to use passata sotto in saber. In the modern version of this move one has to go low by bending the legs to avoid being touched in the outside high line (to the chest at the right side of one's foil -- for a RH fencer) by avoiding the touch and at the same time hitting the opponent on his side or abdomen. However, since in saber one can score also with the edge of the blade, if one goes low in most cases this means that he'll be hit on the head or on the back instead of on the chest, hence there is no advantage to this move.

This action is much more effective in foil because one can score only with the point of the blade and therefore it is possible to predict the direction of the hit and therefore avoid it. The exception is a well executed flick, but with the new rules this is now much less frequent.

(in consultation with Maestro Bernacchi)

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by gladius

It doesn't make much sense to use passata sotto in saber.

I was going to say that if someone did a passata sotto against me in sabre, I'd just hit them on the back. Not a good thing to do against a sabre fencer who know what (s)he is doing--you'll lose the point and it will probably sting too.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Bryn Ralph

The passata sotto is a counter-attack that operates against both simple and compound attacks that end in the outside high line. ... Using this movement in sabre would be ill-advised; mostly used with the foil -- rarely with the epee.

The comment about epee surprises me. I have traditionally considered an opponent's attack that ends, as you say, in the outside high line as an opportunity to use a passata sotto counter attack to their lunged leg or foot. The timing and distance must, of course, be precise.

[Inquartata]

I think perhaps what Inferno was saying about using it is that by lowering his body in a passata soto against a flunging opponent---many of whom, especially as beginners at flunging, go up as well as forward---he is further increasing the distance between them and giving his outthrust line more time to lock out the flunger's attack. In which event it doesn't matter where the opponent lands his cut, it won't score...

It's not something I would ever have thought of using myself, and would not think is terribly useful as a general tactic, but I can see how it might work for a given individual.

[edew]

A passata-soto in saber can work against someone making a cheek cut. Flunges, especially if done with a thrust can be ducked under using the passata-soto in combination with the quicker lock-out timing.

As to the question of whether the hand should be pronated, supinated, or somewhere in between, the question is easily answered by what feels the most comfortable. Fencing actions are all based on efficiency and elegance. Being in an uncomfortable position does not lead to efficient actions.

[J.Harris]

Erm... unless I'm being an idiot (again) doesn't pasata sotto require a supporting hand on the floor and is therefore illegal?

[Inquartata]

Not illegal. Three points on the floor is permitted.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by J.Harris

Erm... unless I'm being an idiot (again) doesn't pasata sotto require a supporting hand on the floor and is therefore illegal?

t.21 Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip.

[J.Harris]

I was told that you're allowed the unarmed hand in contact with the strip, but that it should not be supporting your weight. So, if you removed the unarmed hand you would not topple over.

[edew]

And just how is that rule enforceable or how can a referee determine how exactly is the weight distributed. I believe you've been fed a pile of manure and you gladly ate it up with relish.

Look, get yourself into a three-point position. Put as much weight as you can on the arm supporting you, but don't fall over. Now, get out of that position without falling over. Can anyone prove that your arm actually supported your weight, as opposed to your legs? It's not determinable without you falling over. And if you fall over, there's a separate rule for uncontrolled fencing, also known as falling while scoring a touch.

BTW, a simple fall or slip, such as hitting a slick spot or having bald heels on the front shoe, is not a penalizable action. Falling of slipping as a result of an uncontrolled action in order to obtain a touch is a penalty. And as such, any touch scored is annulled as well.