Weight Training and Successful fencers

[Mr Epee]

Triceps good.... biceps bad....

Based on what research? I do both and have yet to have a problem in any way. In fact, my parries are much more solid now and my speed and acuracy are increasing again. I'm winning more bouts now.

Take a look at the way the sport works.
Take a look at the way the muscles work.

Or

Take a look at top fencers

Do they have strongly developed biceps, or lean arms with a powerful triceps?

Inappropriately developed biceps will slow down your extension.

If you are just starting out and need to get into shape, you probably aren't hurting yourself by doing a full body strengthening program... esp since it sounds like you are doing so under professional guidance

BUT this thread is specifically about weight training programs of successful fencers... from my perspective this means top competetive athletes, not people who are new to the sport and are not currently physically fit.

Of course success has many meanings.

Why is it that Americans have a hard time with being moderate about everything (myself included but I am learning)? It is always the extremes....

I'm not sure it's appropriate to blame the citizens of the greatest nation on earth for what sounds like a personal problem.

[broncofencer]

I seem to remember an issue of American Fencing had the usoc fencing workout in it this was right around the Sydney Olympics.
Anyone with back issues that can find out?
I also remeber that there also used to be a website for the old issues that had training tips from olympians in it. I found them years ago they may still be out there.

[dramamine]

Just to clarify a few things.

There is no such thing as Olympic style power lifting.

Their is Weightlifting, an Olympic sport where 2 lifts are contested the Snatch and the Clean and Jerk. Olympic weight lifters have amazing power and speed and extreme flexibility especially in the shoulder and hips 2 areas very important to fencing. Don't believe me. Get a broom stick handle. Hold it over head with a twice shoulder width grip, now squat down until your butt is touching your calves. Keep the broom stick directly over your head. Now repeat with a barbell loaded with twice body weight and tell me that extreme shoulder, hip flexor, hamstring and calf flexibility is not required.

Powerlifting is a separate strength sport not contested in the Olympics. There are 3 lifts, the squat, deadlift and bench press.

Bodybuilding as a competitive sports is purely contested on aesthetics. It is not an olympic sport and probably never will be due to it's subjective nature and open association with performace enhancing drugs, namely anabolic steroids.There has not been any strength element involved for about 40 years. However older Bodybuilders like Grimek and Steve Reeves ( of sword and sandal movie fame) included some gymnastics training and had excellent flexibility. Grimek was on the US Olympic Weightlifting team. While massively built he was explosive and flexible and could easily achieve the splits.

Fencers should base their strength training programs around the lifts from the first 2 sports rather than bodybuilding.

Additional muscle mass will make you faster, stronger and more resistant to injury. It will not decrease flexibility as long as you continue to train flexibility. The same goes for fencing skills. Obviously there is a point at which additional mass becomes a hindrance. Lean and mean as another poster put it. Keeping BF% low should be a must. You should attempt to have make strenght to size ratio.

Fencing is an asymmetric sport. It's stop start nature means it mainly uses the anaerobic energy pathways. Because the bouts are short, total calorie expenditure per hour is low. What does this mean for the fencer. For the competitive athlete additional conditioning is a must. Aerobic conditioning , i.e. running, skipping rowing for 20 minutes + at a steady state will help with recovery and provide a basis for all other conditioning modalaties. While fencing bouts are anaerobic all recovery is aerobic.

Next their should be anaerobic training. This can be provided by sprint intervals,tabata training ( 20 on 10 seconds off repeated 8 times) etc. This can also be provided with circuit style weight training.

Regarding reps and sets. High weigh, low rep training mainly works the white explosive anaerobic fibres. However because the load per rep is higher great care has to be taken with form.

High rep, high set training works the type 2 anaerobic fibre which are less important for fencing. Mid rep mid set training is most effective for muscle hypertrophy (growth). However ever at the end of the day diet is a much more important element in weight loss and muscle gain. A good example: It takes 30 minutes running to burn 300 kcal's, you can eat a Mars bar in 1 minute.

Strength training should be balanced, left to right, back to front. If you squat you should deadlift, if you push you should pull. This provides balanced development and increase your resilience to injuries and improves posture. Poor posture is partly causes by muscle imbalance. An over developed chest and week upper back muscles causes rounded shoulder. So if you train your triceps train your biceps.

It is important to stretch after both weight training and fencing training to restore muscle range of motion. If you always do this there will be no loss of flexibility. In fact flexibility should improve. If you add yoga, pilates gymnatcis etc into your training mix further improvement can be ellicited

Weight training should be part of an serious athletes General Physical Preparation (GPP). Have a look at crossfit for an interesting and challenging way to address this that includes aerobic, anaerobic power and strength training.

Plyometrics should be approaches with caution, used sparingly and conservatively when the athlete is still fresh and only by those with a good strength base

GPP should be combined with Sport's Specific Preparation (SPP). For fencing this could include footwork done for time or in an interval fashion. There are a number of drills on this website.

Sorry if I've rambled on a bit. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

Ger

Right on.

Good to make the distinction between the three types of lifters. All can be very athletic, however as an athlete it is important to take what is most beneficial for your sport from each category.

A fencer might take bodybuilder type approach in the first couple months of training in order to evenly add on some muscle and lose some fat, while learning form for the squat, deadlift, etc. Then later he might add cleans, power cleans, overhead/front squats, gradually working his way up to olympic lifting.

I have read on a number of occasions that one should not start plyometrics until he can squat at least 2x his bodyweight to at least parallel, but I think the less stressful plyometrics can be started before then.

In regards to weight training making you slower I think it helps just to think of it like this. Excess weight that is not functional will slow you down, whether it is muscle or fat. Having a lot of muscle that is doing exactly what you need to do will make you faster, though. Think about sprinters: http://www.ttoc.org/athletes/current...r/ato20097.jpg

[wpotere]

Take a look at the way the sport works.
Take a look at the way the muscles work.

Or

Take a look at top fencers

Do they have strongly developed biceps, or lean arms with a powerful triceps?

Then you need to state what type of weight training that you are referring too. Of course mass building will slow your extension but strength training can only help not hinder. You have to be specific...

I have noticed that I was slower in the start of my fencing session until I was properly stretched, then my speed increased back to normal.

The big misunderstanding is that weights are bad for any sport that requires speed. Unfortunetly this is not true. It jsut depends on "how" you lift as to what will happen.

I'm not sure it's appropriate to blame the citizens of the greatest nation on earth for what sounds like a personal problem.

Kinda arrogant if you ask me. Now, as one of the citizens of the "greatest nation" on earth, I am allowed to voice my opinion. FYI all you have to do is watch the news and mu point will be made....

[MarkoB]

A good thread.
I'm wondering whether to drop weight or put on muscle first to get in shape.
I'm 204lbs and 19 per cent body fat. I'm inclined to drop weight.
On the 'greatest nation on earth' theme, I thought that was the French. Or is it the Japanese? Could be the Chinese. How are we measuring greatness? Modesty? Eradication of poverty? Lack of violent crime? Number of guys called 'Brad'?
I'd take a punt on Norway or Iceland if I had to come up with a 'greatest'.
Anyway, a good thread, now ruined by me by tweaking the tail of the US patriotism tiger.

[keith]

Anyway, a good thread, now ruined by me by tweaking the tail of the US patriotism tiger.

Nah. You ruined it by digging up its stinking corpse and dragging it through the streets.

[barbens78]

Do successful fencers (World cup level, olympics, div top 8) tend to have a weight training program? What kind of muscle groups are they concentrating on? Which fencers?

This thread is basically about weight training at the higher levels to improve fencing.

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[tchwojko]

A good thread.
I'm wondering whether to drop weight or put on muscle first to get in shape.
I'm 204lbs and 19 per cent body fat. I'm inclined to drop weight.

For me (6', 215 lbs. down from 235) they went together with a well rounded workout. Cycling + weight training + improved diet (nothing drastic, just way more conscious about cutting out crap) improved my endurance, strength, speed, and reduced my weight. I'm fencing better because of all of the above. And all this soon after a rotator cuff injury (on my off-arm).

Getting down to 190 is my goal, slow and steady.

[telkanuru]

6'2" and 170, neener neener?

[RITFencing]

You tiny, tiny people.

6'4, about 255.

[tchwojko]

6'2" and 170, neener neener?

Damn skinny small target area people...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Let this thread DIE.

[fatfencer]

5'9" and 210 lbs.

14% BF

FF

[AdamH]

5'10 and 236lbs.

Ah, that was just over four years ago, just before starting this fencing thing, yes.

5'10 and 165lbs, with legs to die for and one good shoulder for posing in the shower.

Seriously, exercise helps fencing, what.