Weight Training and Successful fencers

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Totally agree. Any sort of training for power demands a base level of fitness and a cautious approach. Plyometric training has become the magic word for training in speed and power these days, but is easily a source of serious pulls/strains/tears without guidence.

Plyometrics is a very buzzy training phrase :-)

And even once you have the strength training built up you still have to start slow... It can be frustrating and hard to understand how jumping on and off a 6" block is going to help your totally radical swordfighting -

esp when those 18" blocks looks so much cooler, and when the heck I can jump that high - gimme that thing mentality sets in...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by glowstix

a good person to ask, i'd imagine would be bruno..and you're seeing him next weekend. you know how strong and fast he is.

heh, I've already got it, but I wanna see how this thread turns out. Its interesting.

[rcmatthews]

Plyometrics would be the best thing i think. I come from a track and field background (hammer thrower) which requires the balance and agility of fencing, but with much more upper body strength. I would not reccomend bench pressing, because it will tighten the pectoral muscles and decrease flexibility. Some variation on a pectoral fly would be good, and I think it would even help with flexibility.

I would skip out on things like squats and lunges (outside of fencing), because you are likely already doing enough leg excersise as it is, and you don;t want to put too much stress on the knee.

I don't see much use for curls. Maybe tricep exercises to increase extension speed and power, but once again, there is the issue of flexiblity.

Olympic lifting I would generally say no to. The Olympic lifts require a high degree of technique to execute correctly. However, for total body explosiveness, there are not many better exercises than the clean and the snatch.

[the doc]

sword play books are apparently putting a book out called stregth training for fencers this autumn. this is probably the book you will be looking for to answer your questions.

one of the coaches at my club, a former olympic pentathlete and olympic epeeist swears by and forces us all to do lots of medicince ball work. it is great for building up core strength and allows for a measure of explosive action in the moves. also, cos you do the work in pairs it is good in a club situation as you get a bit of team spirit going with the other people who are doing it and they can drive you on if you are flagging a little.

we were all rather reluctant to do it when he first told us, but i think it had made a big difference to me and i would recommend it to anyone.

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by grotto

(don't bulk up.) you want to look like bruce lee not Mr universe. Light weight high rep training has worked well for me.

Does anyone have the definitive word on this?
I had always thought that high weight, low reps was the key to building strength without adding mass, while more reps = more mass?

[Cerian]

If you do strength training correctly you will not lose flexibility or speed. If done properly and in conjunction with stretching, your flexibility will increase with weight training. I've recently started a weight program to aid my fencing under the guidance of a coach who has been internationally competitive and is in the process of becoming a certified physical trainer. Olympic lifts and plyometrics are definitely good, but you need to have a proper base to work off of. Currently I'm just doing strength exercises (bench, squat, deadlift), along with some assistance exercises to help underdeveloped areas and aid flexibility. Olympic lifting and more explosive technqiues will come later. You shouldn't base any crosstraining around cardio. You don't need cardio for fencing. That doesn't mean you should do some every once and a while, but you shouldn't be running for miles or biking all the time. That will just make you slower on the strip, developing slow-twitch rather than fast-twitch muscle. Fencing is anaerobic, not aerobic, so you should focus on developing your anaerobic ability.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Cerian

Fencing is anaerobic, not aerobic, so you should focus on developing your anaerobic ability.

Cerian,

It sounds like you are getting some good advice, but fencing is both an anaerobic and an aerobic activity.

The following are a few excerpts from
Sports Power by David Sandler; Human Kinetics Press

After you achieve an aerobic base, your conditioning should match your sport's aerobic and anaerobic requirements.

Snip

The easiest way to determine the aerobic requirement of your sport is to separate the sports into three categories: those with plays or sustained activity that lasts less than 20 seconds such as hockey and basketball; or lasts more than three minutes, possibly soccer but most likely distance track events Further, you need to examine the rest period between each play or active period. If the rest period is less than six times the duration (less than 120 seconds of rest for every 20 seconds of activity) and the plays are repetitive, then you must train the aerobic and anaerobic systems. With rest periods exceeding 10 times the play duration, the sport is considered entirely anaerobic.

The text then goes into tables of various appropriate interval training programs.

I would select the fencing appropriate being

Anaerobic and Aerobic
Medium - 100m - 800m
Time/Rep - 20 sec - 2min
Rest - 45sec-3min

You were absolutely right about the long distances and slow twitch build-up

Same book on strength training

The purpose of the base-building phase is not to mimic sport skills, but to allow the entire body to develop and adapt to the stresses of training and competition. The most effective skill transfer occurs when practicing skills as the body becoms stronger, faster, and more efficient. The athlete should strengthen all the muscles used to pruduce a movement, and then practice that movement. In base building, you should emphasisze the muscles that ar used most frequently.

[jm_f]

I agree with the two posts above me, strength training with stretching will not hamper flexibility, it's those people who forget the stretching that end up losing flexibility. Also, a note about the aerobic and anaerobic system, if you use up your V02 in cardio, you end up "recruiting" your anerobic system to help. If your cardio is generally "slow", you end up converting IIb muscle fibers to IIa (They're both fast twitch but IIa is more of for endurance rather than speed). In the end, you should train in cardio at the same speed that you want to be in while fencing.


Someone posted while I was making this one, I meant I agree with Cerian's and whtouche's posts.

[rcmatthews]

Strength training will not cause you to lose flexibility. Olympic style powerlifting, however, will. Have you ever seen a very large bodybuilder type walking around with his arms way out to the side? There is a reason for it. They can't put them down. They are not flexible. When I threw hammer for Auburn, chest flexibility was most important. Thusly, we did very little bench press.

I agree with medicine ball routines. Medicine balls are some of the most versatile tools around, and are excellent for core conditioning.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Cerian,

It sounds like you are getting some good advice, but fencing is both an anaerobic and an aerobic activity.

And how aerobic it is varies by fencer and weapon...

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Strength training will not cause you to lose flexibility. Olympic style powerlifting, however, will. Have you ever seen a very large bodybuilder type walking around with his arms way out to the side? There is a reason for it. They can't put them down. They are not flexible. When I threw hammer for Auburn, chest flexibility was most important. Thusly, we did very little bench press.

Thompson does quite a bit of what you term Olympic style powerlifting. I do as well. I can only surmise that many of the other team members have worked with the USOC trainer who attended several of Soter's camps do them as well.

I've noticed no loss of flexibility in myself (over a years worth of training with them), nor does Soren seem in any way less mobile or flexible than before. As noted above, doing them correctly and stretching can increase flexibility.

Yes, the large bodybuilder does lose flexibilty, but it's a combination of factors.

[rcmatthews]

Good for you and Thompson. What I term Olympic powerlifting is just that, the events that are contested in the Olympics. The snatch and the clean and jerk- In my earlier post you will see that I in fact support the snatch and clean and jerk for fencing training because of their explosion building capabilities. However, I think it is imperative for people to understand that these kind of lifts will add mass. Yes, with a very good stretching routine, it would be possbily to minimize negative effects.

Having access to a highly experienced weight coach, or having been properly trained is necessary to properly perform these lifts without injury, which is why I would not recommend them to the majority of fencers.

[wpotere]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Triceps good.... biceps bad....

Based on what research? I do both and have yet to have a problem in any way. In fact, my parries are much more solid now and my speed and acuracy are increasing again. I'm winning more bouts now.

Why is it that Americans have a hard time with being moderate about everything (myself included but I am learning)? It is always the extremes....

If you are going to fence, obviously bulking up is not the recommended path, but toning and strengthening are a great way to get your body into top shape for fencing. Talk to a professional trainer and get a solid opinion. My trainer has me on a good routine that will tone and sculpt me but not bulk me. My speed has increased as has my point control. My workout includes a lot of cardio, weight training and a ton of stretching. A major focus at this time is my abs and lower back but it will vary from person to person. Everyone’s body responds differently and having someone that understands this work with you is extremely helpful.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by darius

Now, check out the last page of this PDF. Look at the metabolic pathways you need to develop as a fencer. (Speaking of which, whoever posted the original link to Crossfit, you rock! This stuff is amazing!)

Very interesting and I note that, at the end of the PDF, they actually have an entry for Fencing.

[rudd]

Just to clarify a few things.

There is no such thing as Olympic style power lifting.

Their is Weightlifting, an Olympic sport where 2 lifts are contested the Snatch and the Clean and Jerk. Olympic weight lifters have amazing power and speed and extreme flexibility especially in the shoulder and hips 2 areas very important to fencing. Don't believe me. Get a broom stick handle. Hold it over head with a twice shoulder width grip, now squat down until your butt is touching your calves. Keep the broom stick directly over your head. Now repeat with a barbell loaded with twice body weight and tell me that extreme shoulder, hip flexor, hamstring and calf flexibility is not required.

Powerlifting is a separate strength sport not contested in the Olympics. There are 3 lifts, the squat, deadlift and bench press.

Bodybuilding as a competitive sports is purely contested on aesthetics. It is not an olympic sport and probably never will be due to it's subjective nature and open association with performace enhancing drugs, namely anabolic steroids.There has not been any strength element involved for about 40 years. However older Bodybuilders like Grimek and Steve Reeves ( of sword and sandal movie fame) included some gymnastics training and had excellent flexibility. Grimek was on the US Olympic Weightlifting team. While massively built he was explosive and flexible and could easily achieve the splits.

Fencers should base their strength training programs around the lifts from the first 2 sports rather than bodybuilding.

Additional muscle mass will make you faster, stronger and more resistant to injury. It will not decrease flexibility as long as you continue to train flexibility. The same goes for fencing skills. Obviously there is a point at which additional mass becomes a hindrance. Lean and mean as another poster put it. Keeping BF% low should be a must. You should attempt to have make strenght to size ratio.

Fencing is an asymmetric sport. It's stop start nature means it mainly uses the anaerobic energy pathways. Because the bouts are short, total calorie expenditure per hour is low. What does this mean for the fencer. For the competitive athlete additional conditioning is a must. Aerobic conditioning , i.e. running, skipping rowing for 20 minutes + at a steady state will help with recovery and provide a basis for all other conditioning modalaties. While fencing bouts are anaerobic all recovery is aerobic.

Next their should be anaerobic training. This can be provided by sprint intervals,tabata training ( 20 on 10 seconds off repeated 8 times) etc. This can also be provided with circuit style weight training.

Regarding reps and sets. High weigh, low rep training mainly works the white explosive anaerobic fibres. However because the load per rep is higher great care has to be taken with form.

High rep, high set training works the type 2 anaerobic fibre which are less important for fencing. Mid rep mid set training is most effective for muscle hypertrophy (growth). However ever at the end of the day diet is a much more important element in weight loss and muscle gain. A good example: It takes 30 minutes running to burn 300 kcal's, you can eat a Mars bar in 1 minute.

Strength training should be balanced, left to right, back to front. If you squat you should deadlift, if you push you should pull. This provides balanced development and increase your resilience to injuries and improves posture. Poor posture is partly causes by muscle imbalance. An over developed chest and week upper back muscles causes rounded shoulder. So if you train your triceps train your biceps.

It is important to stretch after both weight training and fencing training to restore muscle range of motion. If you always do this there will be no loss of flexibility. In fact flexibility should improve. If you add yoga, pilates gymnatcis etc into your training mix further improvement can be ellicited

Weight training should be part of an serious athletes General Physical Preparation (GPP). Have a look at crossfit for an interesting and challenging way to address this that includes aerobic, anaerobic power and strength training.

Plyometrics should be approaches with caution, used sparingly and conservatively when the athlete is still fresh and only by those with a good strength base

GPP should be combined with Sport's Specific Preparation (SPP). For fencing this could include footwork done for time or in an interval fashion. There are a number of drills on this website.

Sorry if I've rambled on a bit. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

Ger

[rudd]

Quick apologies. Just read the pdf that was posted and realised it was teh crossfit journal. Explain things better than my post does.

Ger

[Teme]

I'd imagine strength training programs for tennis or squash would give nice guidelines for fencing, too. Physiologically there's not much difference between the three.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Good for you and Thompson. What I term Olympic powerlifting is just that, the events that are contested in the Olympics. The snatch and the clean and jerk- In my earlier post you will see that I in fact support the snatch and clean and jerk for fencing training because of their explosion building capabilities. However, I think it is imperative for people to understand that these kind of lifts will add mass. Yes, with a very good stretching routine, it would be possbily to minimize negative effects.

I agree it's imperative for people to get good training, but I have to tell you, although I've gained muscle mass, I've slimmed down since I've been following (with tweaks) the program. A fencer doesn't spend all day in the gym. 2 days out of the week. It's enough to gain the explosiveness you need, but maintain the flexibility and speed that's required for fencing. I have a pretty good stretching routine, not very good, and my flexibility has only increased, since adding such weights to my routine.

[rcmatthews]

I am sorry for confusing the terms powerlifting and weightlifting. Where I have used them previously you can assume I am using them as synonyms for weightlifting. Also, I am basing my knowledge of the two lifts and how they effect your body off of a college track and field program, lifting five days a week, with light stuff on Saturday. Obviously this would be vastly different from 2 days a week. Also, the combination of exercises performed in addition to the other two would have an effect on development.