Advantages of stiff or whippy foil blades

[TheScribe]

In the search for a good foil blade I was made aware of the fact that you could choose the stiffness of your blade compared to them just throwing them in the box.
What are the advantages/disadvantages of a stiff or whippy blade?

-The Scribe

[DarkTransient]

If you like to stab -> pick a stiff blade.
If you like to flick -> pick a whippy blade.

Personally I like whippy blades. I find a stiff blade isn't all that useful in foil since there is no point forcing your blade through your opponent's parry. And of course it is tougher to flick with a stiff blade. A whippy blade on the other hand is.. uhm.. whippy. The tip moves easily and thus you might miss your target easily, and any chance of accidentally scratch your opponent and score is nonexisting. Unlike using a stiff blade, you have to be precise when you extend your arm to attack.
BUT it can be overcome with a steady hand and good point control.
So for a starter you should get a less expansive stiff blade, and it will be to your advantage. And as time goes on, if you don't turn into one of those flicker haters, you will want to move on to next level and start flicking yourself, and then, get a good FIE blade with a stiffness of your desire.

Viva flickers!

[This message has been edited by DarkTransient (edited 04-25-2001).]

[neevel]

Well, actually there are plenty of fencers who are perfectly good at flicking who use BF blades, which are quite stiff-- if your technique's right, there's no need for a whippy blade to pull off flicks. And not having the point flopping around too much with strong blade actions can help accuracy with flicks as well as with thrusts. Still, it will be easier for most folks to flick with a whippier blade.

-Dave

[mango fever]

i don't think there are too many people who can really flick well, so i prefer not to use them myself, and i don't like to have to use sabre parries against them - i think there may be a confusion between a coupe and a flick. some people are calling coupes flicks. flicks are definetly different, and the part that no-one likes about them is getting slapped on the arm broadside. the pity of it is it doesn't count as a point and it just leaves a nasty bruise. Most aggressive moves: I think just well executed attacks that land are aggressive, a simple lunge, etc. What makes an attack aggressive is the speed at which it is executed and lands. Slower attacks are not as forceful and are not seen as being aggressive though.

[DarkTransient]

Flick is a variation of coupe. it says so on fencing.net's FAQ.
A flick isn't nearly as harmful as a thrust. Pressure = Force/Area. The worst bruises I've had were all resulted from thrust attacks. I'd rather get slapped than stabbed.

[DarkTransient]

Most thrusts can be made with the same force as a flick or greater. Let me prove it scientifically using some simple physics.
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2
when you're running toward someone there is kinetic energy. And that energy will be delivered to your target upon impact.
Let's evaluate a thrust.
Let's assume our subject is a person measuring 60Kg and is running at a speed of 18 km/hour(~11miles/hr) which is 5 m/sec. Asuuming his arm is already extended, the tip of his blade is also traveling at 5 m/sec.(the top speed of a human being is about 10m/sec, so using 5m/sec is very conservative)
so
0.5x60kg x (5 m/sec)^2 = 750 Joules

Now let's see the energy created by a flick.

Calculating the energy of a blade in cutting motion isn't simple (i.e. angular momentum stuff), but we don't need to be that precise. Let's assume that the entire blade travels at the speed of the tip, say 170 km/hr(which is never the case. the speeds of the rest parts of the blade are always less but let's just use the maximum speed so that we know the resulting number will be greater than the actual) and the blade measured 500 g.
170km/hr ~= 47.2 m/sec.(~100 miles/hr) ( this speed includes the running speed of the fencer. The mass of the fencer is not included since it has nothing to do with a flick. i.e. you can't really put your weight behind a flick as you do a thrust)

so 0.5 x 0.5kg x (47.2 m/sec)^2 = 557.48 Joules

Assuming the same blade were used in both scenarios, we can see that a thrust is clearly more powerful than a flick.
(yes, this is a VERY rough estimation but it proves my point.)
The result shows why no one ever gets killed by a flick.

[attila]

Hi Dark T

I used to feel the same way. But once I ran an empyrical test run on flicks I found otherwise. You really ought to try it out. Sharpen a foil blade and flick a few things and see what happens. I went through a 1/4" piece of leather with a flick ( beat flick to chest type} and I could not do that with a straight lunge/thrust. I think the acceleration on the weak of the blade at delivery is the key.

------------------
"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[Porphyre]

Dark Transient:
I've got to agree with Atilla. At this moment, i've got a bruise on my bicep that's about three inches by 5 inches. I got it from an over-exuberant game of Italian circle fencing. My opponent slapped me twice on the bicep, forming an X. Bad bruises. It hurt. Hell, I got an 1/8th inch long cut through my jacket AND plastron. Poorly executed flicks can and DO exert more force even than thrusts that are meant to hurt. It has to do with the springy-ness of the blade, I think.

-Porphyre

[TheScribe]

Yes you are right. While a thrust mathamatically may be more powerful, you are not taking into effect the fact that when you flick you have a certain sling effect that increases the total energy expiered by the blade on its target. That is why i also think that flicking is so hard for some people that actually bother to develop point controll to an extream.

[space_cadet]

Blah, blah, blah...

------------------
Cadet à Space

[Gabriel]

dark transient-
this is meant as no offense, but the way you are delivering your message makes you sound like a beginner who has just now stumbled onto flicking (and there isn't anything really wrong with that). The others are right, the flexibility of a blade has very little to do with the ability to land a flick. While it is true that you're going to have a tougher time doing one with an allstar blade than w/ a france lames, it reall is just a matter of technique. As for slapping and stabbing, these are both the marks of a poor fencer. When you start fencing really good people, you'll realize that when a flick misses, it still shouldn't land hard. (thath last part is directed to all, not just DT). -gabriel

[Gajuith]

I hear ya space cadet

[DarkTransient]

uhm.. did I say you can't land a flick with a stiff blade, gabriel? All I said was it is easier to flick with a less stiff blade, which you verified my point in your own message, redundantly. So you are essentially saying anyone who likes a whippy blade is a beginner.
And you said "when you start fencing really good people, you'll realize that when a flick misses, it still shouldn't land hard." Well that isn't completely true either. You have to know when fencing, you move, and so does your opponent. Unless you always stand there like a tree, your opponent is bound to miscalculate once in awhile. If you have seen 1999 Foil World Championship you would know slapping still occurs even at the top level fencing.

[This message has been edited by DarkTransient (edited 04-26-2001).]

[DarkTransient]

attila, to demonstrate my point using a real world example, let's pick Smirnov Incident. My proof: Smirnov would not have died had it been a flick. Mask piercing kind of power can only be achieved by a thrust.
This is why I said I'd rather get flicked, any day and any time, rather than get stabbed.

[This message has been edited by DarkTransient (edited 04-26-2001).]

[attila]

Hi Dark T

I don't think you have all the details of the Smiroff accident. It happened on an attack counter between a lefty and a righty, Smiroff was hit on the arm and as the two fencers closed ground the weapon of the German( Behr) snapped at the mid- sending the really stiff and jagged leftover into Smirnoff's mask( pre 12 kilo punch test-- this accident is the reason we went from 8 to 12 kilo) and going through mask into his eye then brain. C'mon. Give it a go. It is really quite fun. I used really thick leather for one trial and a pork roast for another. Theory is quite good but as you know, you still have to do the lab work......

------------------
"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[DarkTransient]

That is right, and it was a thrusting motion that killed him. Had it been a cutover nothing would have happened.

[Gabriel]

DT-
I'm not "essentially" saying anything. You are the one who made a connection between whippy blades and beginners, and that is what I was pointing out. I just said that technique will allow the attack with any blade, not just a whippy one. I was agreeing with your point in that it can be done with a blade of almost any flexibility level. The second comment was directed towards everyone in the post who had cited a gripe about being hit to hard with a flick. I said that when these people (whether you yourself are among them I don't know) start fencing really good fencers, then they will find that for the majority of the time, flicks do not land hard even when they miss. Let me explain something to you, DT. You don't need an incredible amount of force to execute a flick. All you need is a slightly forceful extension. Now, most beginners don't know this, so they will tend to throw or snap their forearms about. So, does it make sense to you that when you start fencing people who know what they're doing, they will presumably be flicking correctly and thereby will not landing hard, even off target. You misinterpreted my message. -Gabriel

[Purple Fencer]

I think we're all missing another important part of the mechanics of the flick, and it's not necessarrily dependent on the stiffness of the blade...hand position relative to the surface being hit.

I don't plan to flick much myself, unless I'm going against a lefty, in which case I'm either trying for a lateral flick to teh chest or a parry/counter six followed by a flick to the left shoulder.

On those times when I DO try and flick (usually a righty after a parry four action), I don't get the light to go off unless my hand is far enough away to allow for sufficient curvature of the blade. I'm usually too close, so it ends up beign a slap, which I immediately follow up with a thrust to the chest because I KNOW I suck at flicks!

I really need to start paying for lessons.

------------------
Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[PisteOff]

To quote DT : "Smirnov would not have died had it been a flick. Mask piercing kind of power can only be achieved by a thrust...it was a thrusting motion that killed him. Had it been a cutover nothing would have happened." "This is why I said I'd rather get flicked, any day and any time, rather than get stabbed."

(INSERT SARCASM HERE) Okay, for safety's sake, from this point on no one can ever use any attack but flicks.

*sigh*

Anywho, back on topic, I like BF blades. Mine has never deformed and its still 'whippy' enough to pull off a moderate flick.

PisteOff

[mango fever]

why then does everybody get so pissed off when they get flicked? they don't react the same when it's a plain ordinary thrust. and, not to belabor the point, which may be pointless anyway, anything to the mask is uncomfortable, and here's a question: in sabre, the cut to the head doesn't feel very uncomfortable right? isn't that because the person has been trained to execute the cut correctly? what if it's executed incorrectly? then doesn't it become uncomfortable and annoying?