Behold the power of SOCKS!!!

[CvilleFencer]

Okay, you may or may not have read my rant in the Allstar Gloves thread about fencing gloves and what they should be for the money compared to what they are. My next pet peeve is socks. Fencing socks to be specific. So many "fencing" socks are nothing more than long tube socks or "allsport" socks with, if you are lucky, a company logo on the side. This type of sock retails, RETAILS mind you for about 3-5 dollars but they usually sell to fencers for $8-15 a pair. That is crap. Even the most expensive sock, the Adidas "Equipment" fencing sock is very very poor in features and content for what it offers for the $18-25 that they sell them for. And yet many fencers gladly pay this ridiculous amount of money for a glorified tube sock purchased from a fencing vendor.

For a comparison I am going to talk a little bit about two outstanding socks for fencing that I think fencers should take a look at:

The first is the Adidas Elite Soccer sock. These come in actual sizes for a proper fit, and you can find them in more than sufficient length even if you are well over six feet. I am 6'5" and I have to fold over about two inches of the sock. This sock has several very nice features for the fencer. The first is a seamless toe for a smooth fit inside tight fencing shoes, arch and ankle compression to increase bloodflow and comfort, and mesh construction on the toebox and calf for heat control. They also have a very cushy foot bed that does a great job of preventing blisters and at least for me eliminates the need to wear two pairs of socks. My feet have felt much better in practice after switching to these socks which means I move better and practice longer.

The only down side is they are a little thin on the shin for epee, but they are slick which is a fair trade for me. The Adidas Copa and Copa Edge socks are a heavier weight material on the shin, cost less and offer the same great features as the elite should you prefer. And how much do these socks that would seem to be awesomely perfect for fencing cost? 7-11 dollars a pair. All that and they are more durable and hold their shape better than most fencing socks. And they come in colors. Lots and lots of colors.

The other sock brand that I have been trying out are the Under Armor Flat Nit soccer socks. These are very nice as well. They offer a smooth, form fitting surface due to the flat nit construction so they conform to your feet and calves very well, are plenty long and come in sizes for a proper fit. They have a fully reciprocated heel and two with a flat toe seem which is useful if your fencing shoes run tight, or you like to lace them tight as I do. The also offer Lycra spandex material in the ankle and arch to increase blood flow and lesson fatigue. The bottom are lightly padded offering good blister protection and a very comfy fit. Best of all they have the now famous under armor material so they keep your feet cool and dry. And they come in colors. Lots of colors. Best of all is that you can get them in one or two pair packs. $8-10 for one or $14-16 for the two pack.

Fencing vendors are you awake out there? We fencers are beginning to look around at the world of other sports and realize that we are being overcharged for old tech at new prices on many items. A few companies, most notably LP (mask design, bell design, impact absorbing foam, the new Blades fencing shoe, etc) but also to a much lesser extent Uhlmann with their "sticky" gloves and Vniti with their indestructible bells are doing a decent job of keeping up with the expanding technology but I look around and simply ask why can't more vendors do more?

I really wonder if a lot of the big fencing vendors even have an R&D department? So much stuff is made in exactly the same way with exactly the same materials as it was 30 or more years ago. Am I the only fencer looking at the innovative new products for other sports and asking why don't we have this? Big companies don't seem to want to try to break into fencing, but so many of their products would greatly expand the sport if they were only adapted/modified slightly by someone knowledgeable about fencing.

There is a material out there that is not overly expensive that is as thin as three sheets of paper but is 11 times more abrasion (think about where your gloves wear throw from grip friction) and 27x more cut resistant than leather. Why the hell don't they make fencing gloves out of this stuff? For that matter how about lining a jacket with it or making it a layer of a plastron. Imagine 12-1600n jackets that weigh less than a sweatshirt. Why don't they Scotch Guard Uniforms? How about treating them with an anti-microbial agent so the smell after a hard day does not kill insects in mid flight? LP is doing good with their new reactive foam and other innovations but I want more! More dammit and I want it now!

Okay thats it. I am starting my own fencing gear manufacturer. Now I just need a staff, a building and a few hundred grand to get things rolling. You hear that Uhlmann, Duelist, PBT? There is a new player coming to town. He knows tech, how to adapt designs to control his own R&D cost, other sports and the tactical market for inspiration, US and Euro markets and he is not afraid to use that knowledge to DESTROY YOU! Better act fast to beat him to the punch on this, otherwise your days are over!

Okay, blatant bluff, but maybe if I hit lotto? Anyway, end of rant. Do try the Adidas or Under Armor socks. They are just awesome and are much better to fence in than anything I know of currently offered, even the stupid expensive Adidas “fencing” socks. So does anyone else out there have a piece of non-fencing gear they have adapted to serve a fencing purpose? I think everyone knows about using golf travel bags as opposed to the crazy expensive fencing bags by Uhlmann, PBT and LP since they hold more, are better made and are cheaper than all but the most basic fencing bags. Any other great items out there we should know about?

[angriff]

I think Uhlmann socks are padded in the shin area, though how much protection they offer, I don't know.. Anyway I wear Adidas soccer socks that cost me a mere S$15 - about US$6-7? - and look better than their fencing counterparts

[mfp]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

So many "fencing" socks are nothing more than long tube socks or "allsport" socks with, if you are lucky, a company logo on the side. This type of sock retails, RETAILS mind you for about 3-5 dollars but they usually sell to fencers for $8-15 a pair. That is crap. Even the most expensive sock, the Adidas "Equipment" fencing sock is very very poor in features and content for what it offers for the $18-25 that they sell them for. And yet many fencers gladly pay this ridiculous amount of money for a glorified tube sock purchased from a fencing vendor.

So you want fencing socks? What about Adidas' follow up to their US Patent 6,430,847?

United States Patent

Asymmetric socks

Abstract

The present invention relates to athletic socks used in sports that require asymmetric movement of the feet, such as fencing. The asymmetric socks of the present invention include a trailing sock and a leading sock that are each specially adapted to the particular asymmetric movement of the trailing and leading foot, respectively, allowing each foot to perform optimally. The leading and trailing sock each include an upper, a sole and a toe enclosure. The trailing shoe sole includes front, rear, lateral, and medial portions, the lateral sole portion having a greater thickness than the medial portion. [...]

[Alex_Paul]

I agree whole heartedly with what you have said Civille, there is always room for technical innovation in sport. As it happens we do have a pair of wicking antimicrobial socks on the way.

We do spend a considerable amount of time and money on R and D at LP but there is a lot more money in football/baseball etc... than there is in Fencing equipment. I am not sure what Adidas spend on R and D as a proportion of their turnover but I am certain that Leon Paul spend proportionately more.

[achilleus]

Ya know, I agree with everything you've said about fencing equipment.

I tend not to use fencing specific equipment when I can. As mentioned above, other sports have $ and therefore a lot more research and development is done on the equipment.

I don't use fencing specific shoes or socks. Frankly, I'm surprised anybody pays for the Adidas socks. Thorlo's make the best socks in the world, and they happen to make a long, over the calf basketball sock. Might be short for some, but it's thick, cushioned, durable, and you won't get blisters. Ever.

Or even Twin Cities Ultimate Baseball Sock. Another favorite of mine partially because neither have any logos on them. While I think the fencing socks are better than a cheap tube sock with a logo (Allstar/Uhlmann, LP, PBT, and Negrini at least) they really pale in comparison with many non-fencing specific socks.

[Barry Paul]

You have to distiguish between pure manufactuers of fencing equipment and resellers. In the u.s. most are resellers and do not have the finacial strength to inovate or the volumn which could create a worthwhile market to invest in product development. Many of these vendors are buying from cheap manufacturers who in the whole are only capable of copying, having no understanding or background in fencing.

Were there are cross over products from other sports, hard Golf bags being a good example the market for golf products is abot 1000 times bigger than fencing, the unit cost of the end product is less and can be sold at a lower price than fencing specific bags. (These golf bags might be ok for the U.S. but they don't fit in most european compact cars or take up too much space.) European manufactures therefore have no finicial incentive to produce fencing specific hard case bags. The golf bags might well be cheap but they are not very user friendly in the gym or even on public transport ( For American readers this means buses underground etc).

Re-naming products with clever names and slick advertising is no substitute for real inovation and is soon found out by fencers.

So real inovation will either come from specific cross over items or from one of the few remaining specific manufactures who retain, manufacturing capacity, fencing specific know how and sufficient profits to re-invest into their business. Thats about 3 companies in the world.

[yeoldearmourer]

My daughter love her leon Paul socks so much she stole my pair of leon paul socks that Barry sent back with her has a gift for me.. I got to wear them one time. Haven;t see since.

[rudd]

Hi Barry

Just wondering who the other 2 are?

[Welted 24/7]

Meh, I just use the long Hanes ones. I've never had a problem and never had to pay more than five bucks for my fencing socks.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

You have to distiguish between pure manufactuers of fencing equipment and resellers. In the u.s. most are resellers and do not have the finacial strength to inovate or the volumn which could create a worthwhile market to invest in product development.

That's a good point....Dan Dechaine said it took LP a decade of worldwide sales to recoup the R&D, patent, and other costs of your bayonet system...and you're one of the big boys. For a very small vendor like me, that's just not much of an option.

That being said, I AM working on some parts of my own that are not just copies of existing gear, but I'm not really looking for worldwide sales to recop large R&D costs...I'm just looking to have a ready supply of gear for my customers so I don't have to change prices every time the Euro burps.

Hopefully I can release some of the items for sale by the end of the year, if not before...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'd like to see a jacket with an underarmour lining, or a climacool fencing mask.

[smohrle]

Hey there -
I have to admit, Taylor and I are LP bigot's. However, there are three products that we currently use that do not come from the fencing world...

1. Nike baseball seamless, sleevless compression coolmax shirts. They retail for about $30 at Academ, Sports Auhority etc. We both use these, they make them for women as well. Very Comfy, no chafing and they wick like crazy...Just make sure to wash them the first time before wearing them, they color bleed before the first washing. (Found this out the hard way).

2. Taylor - Bike boxer coolmax athletic supporter. Says the boxers wick and do not chafe. Comfortable. Retail at about $14 at the same retailers above.

3. Me - Nike running shorts - tight and coolmax. Wick and are very comfy, also offer some compression help for quads and hamstrings...Retail at about $32 at the same retailers above.

Just some FYI...
Sarah

[Inquartata]

My problem has never been finding suitable socks. There are plenty around. My problem has been finding suitable socks in plain white. I do not, as most of you know, WANT "lots and lots of colors". I think "lots and lots of colors" are inappropriate for fencing, and ugly to boot ( boot, heh ). Everywhere I look, colors, logos, stripes---I don't want 'em. I want plain, white, socks. Is this too much to ask? I will even pay the premium prices fencing vendors charge---but nooooo, the all carry the colored, striped, logo'd socks, too...probably because they buy them in the same places I'm looking.

Thank the gods for Wigwam. I just wish they were actually available in stores!

[Larrison]

Hmm.. I just buy soccer socks. Fairly inexpensive ($3-4 per pair), so I have enough to change if needed at a competition, fairly formfitting, come in a variety of "weights" (thicknesses), and come in a huge variety of colors and patterns including pure white (most common). They're designed to go to the knee, so I haven't had problems on length even though I'm over 6'.

[Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by rudd

Hi Barry

Just wondering who the other 2 are?

No Comment! (but thanks for thinking we are one of the three)

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Thank the gods for Wigwam. I just wish they were actually available in stores!

They are, at REI. And I found white soccer socks on my first look-through... In fact, they're what I wore until I got my "UMass" socks...

[remise]

I guess I'd better find out where I got these all-white socks I have. They go way above the knee if I want, they are padded on the bottom, and are thick. I've taken epee hits from a beginner and they protected me. If you guys are interested, I'll ask my kids where these things came from and tell you on Monday.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

So real inovation will either come from specific cross over items or from one of the few remaining specific manufactures who retain, manufacturing capacity, fencing specific know how and sufficient profits to re-invest into their business. Thats about 3 companies in the world.

I hear ya. I am usually at a moral crossroads when it comes to fencing stuff vs. non fencing stuff.

Sure the Nike Golf bag is cheaper and well made, but how will the fencing manufacturers make money and thus better equipment unless fencers buy the equipment? It's cool that a major sports company, Adidas, makes fencing specific shoes, socks, shirts, and uniforms. If fencers don't buy them, what incentive is there for Adidas to keep making such equipment, and to sponsor NGB's like the USFA?

Thoughts like this make me consider trying products out, like the new LP shoes. I'm interested, even though I get the feeling they won't work for me, but I want them to be a success for LP.

Unfortunately for the manufacturers, my wallet usually trumps any moral qualms I have.

But one thing I do think that a equipment manufacturer should do is work with Under Armour, or a similar product to produce fencing shirts and shorts. I learned how great baseball sliding shorts are. Basically, compression shorts with pads on the front and sides of the hip and thigh. Certain basketball players wear them to help with impact on the hardwood. They make similar shirts for football, compression, with light padding for high chafe areas. How popular would a product that is flat, adds no bulk, wicks sweat, but adds some padding to high impact areas be? My guess is pretty popular, especially with some of the smaller kids looking for protection, or parents looking for reassurance.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Frankly, I'm surprised anybody pays for the Adidas socks.

its for the fashion statement...the 3 stripes down the side look cool. the knickers, on the other hand, look terrible and are ridiculously overpriced.. . that being said, if i had the money right now, i'd get the asymmetrics and the socks..

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

They are, at REI. And I found white soccer socks on my first look-through... In fact, they're what I wore until I got my "UMass" socks...

The extra thick ones, or the thin crap ones?

Figures, though. REI isn't known for low prices...