Behold the power of SOCKS!!!

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by glowstix

its for the fashion statement...the 3 stripes down the side look cool. the knickers, on the other hand, look terrible and are ridiculously overpriced.. . that being said, if i had the money right now, i'd get the asymmetrics and the socks..

The Adidas elites that I mention in my rant have the same large three stripes going down the calf but are cheaper, better made, more supportive, last longer, etc. Plus you can get the stripes in cool colors on the Elites!

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by glowstix

its for the fashion statement...the 3 stripes down the side look cool. the knickers, on the other hand, look terrible and are ridiculously overpriced.. . that being said, if i had the money right now, i'd get the asymmetrics and the socks..

Right, like $22 isn't overpriced for a pair of socks? Where do you buy your socks? In the chain sports stores, soccer and baseball socks run anywhere from $2-$12. And that's top of the line, with Adidas logos and all...

The fashion thing also confuses me. I've never enjoyed looking like a billboard, much less paying money to look like one. Now, if you get 'em for endorsement purposes, such as, you made the national team, and they gave 'em to you, that's different.

[Inquartata]

Once upon a time, corporations had to PAY people to wear their advertisements. Now people pay THEM for the "privilege"...it's the world turned upside down.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

The extra thick ones, or the thin crap ones?

Figures, though. REI isn't known for low prices...

Don't know which type of Wigwam sock you like, but Sports Authority advertises 20 types on their website and you should be able to find a couple of their stores near you. And they're not known for being as pricey as REI.

Don't know if they carry what you're looking for, but they're another place to look.

-B :)

[CvilleFencer]

Okay, I originally posted this in the Allstar Gloves thread but I felt it was on topic here as well so I reposted it:

In general I agree with you on that. I try to save up my Uhlmann/Allstar orders to about twice a year as the savings on a large amount of gear more than makes up for the large shipping cost and having to wait a couple of weeks for it to arrive. However in my experience with the current Euro/Dollar rate it is not cost effective to order most things straight from Germany if you order is under a few hundred dollars.

So yes, the vendor markup plays a large part of it, but I appreciate being able to buy gear from a US vendor, deal with English speaking customer service and have my kit in a few days as opposed to a few weeks. For those things I am willing to pay a certain premium (although some vendors charge more than even I am willing to allow. PBT USA being a good example...). My main point is that even at 25-30 dollars, in other sports or applications you can get something much more high tech, functional, safer, better fitting, etc than a couple of pieces of fake dead cow stitched together with cotton thread. If they bother to put on flecks of grippy stuff similar to what you would find on $2 dollar gardening gloves that wears away after a few months we consider it a great improvement.

It seems to me the fencing industry suffers from both a strong bend of traditionalism and a lack of competition. LP and to a lesser degree Zivkovic seem to be the only companies really striving to innovate new products and incorporate modern materials into fencing. The problem with that I think is that LP is at a very Premium price point and Zivkovic is focused on certain niche items (grips and guards). If a company at a more moderate price point came out with innovative gear incorporating the features I mention I feel it would force the other companies to follow suite and offer similar products or, even better, to start an "arms race" to bring new an innovative ideas, material and products to market.

As an example I give you both the “sticky” glove from Uhlmann/Allstar and the “Titanium” guards from Vniti. They were moderate common sense improvements over existing designs (“Lets make a glove that does not let the weapon slip out of you hand when you sweat” and “Lets make a guard that does not crumple like tin foil on a hard hit and that does not weigh more than the blade it is mounted on”). After their successful release of these items they are now everyday with most of the big vendors and even a few Chinese makers producing similar. I think most of LP’s gear does not spark such a similar revolution because of their price point (oh my god expensive compared to even other quality brands) and that they do not have a large presence outside of the UK. Those of us willing to pay “Bentley” money for our sedans drive Bentleys, not Prius even though it is a much more innovative vehicle. But now that the Prius is out there at a main stream price point even Kia is working on bringing a hybrid to market! I think the same will hold true for Fencing as it is less an industry phenomenon than it is a general market phenomenon. Maybe not the best example, but it is the only one I can come up with. You could draw a similar example to Under Armor’s revolutionary line of clothing and all the imitators out there now.

Right now most manufacturers are not motivated to produce innovation because we put up with and keep buying the outdated, less effective offerings they currently have on the market either for the "support the sport" moral reasons that have been mentioned in this and other threads or because we don't know about other options. I however do not think most manufacturers approach the business of selling goods with such a romanticized notion of "supporting the sport". They are in business to make money. They will not change or evolve the way we do business unless they are forced to do so. To them it is just good business to keep business as usual and sell the same tired old thing as long as there is a market for it. In other words it is up to us, the consumers to force the change.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Don't know which type of Wigwam sock you like, but Sports Authority advertises 20 types on their website and you should be able to find a couple of their stores near you. And they're not known for being as pricey as REI.

Don't know if they carry what you're looking for, but they're another place to look.

-B

Sports Authority is one of the places I've combed in vain. They have dozens of kinds of socks, indeed. Soccer, baseball, football, running, golf. Long, short, mid-calf, ankle, above-the-knee. An embarassment of riches, but no heavy-duty Wigwams, alas. And rather few plain white ones long enough to be used at all for fencing, though ones with stripes out the wazoo...

[gatorjosh]

Go to Ross and get 2 pairs of long white nike football socks for $2.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by gatorjosh

Go to Ross and get 2 pairs of long white nike football socks for $2.

First person who posts a reference to the Ross commercials gets a black card...

[Inquartata]

"Open, open, open!"

Wait, maybe that's Mervyn's.

Anyway, I am fairly certain that Nike socks are going to have that 'swoosh' logo on them...

[Barry Paul]

As an example I give you both the “sticky” glove from Uhlmann/Allstar and the “Titanium” guards from Vniti. They were moderate common sense improvements over existing designs (“Lets make a glove that does not let the weapon slip out of you hand when you sweat” and “Lets make a guard that does not crumple like tin foil on a hard hit and that does not weigh more than the blade it is mounted on”)


I have to point out I think your two examples are a bit odd.

The whole logic of the sticky gloves is just wrong, produce lots of handles with a high polish coat them with a shinny paint, producing a handle which is slippery when wet. To solve the problem they come up with a wonderful new glove with rubber pads on (which I am told does not last that long.) Why not solve the problem by producing non slippery handles in the first place.

As for guards I think you are missing the point, Leon Paul make a standard epee guard which has a reputation of being long lasting and strong we also make a light weight guard which is the lightest on the market.

If you want to compromise then pick a cheaper mid weight epee guards of Viniti or Alstar/Uhlman, But if you want lightness and a complete epee which is lighter than most foils we think you should use our lightweight guards.

Quote:In other words it is up to us, the consumers to force the change.

This will only work if fencers are prepared to pay for inovation and quality.

Barry Paul.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

I have to point out I think your two examples are a bit odd.

The whole logic of the sticky gloves is just wrong, produce lots of handles with a high polish coat them with a shinny paint, producing a handle which is slippery when wet. To solve the problem they come up with a wonderful new glove with rubber pads on (which I am told does not last that long.) Why not solve the problem by producing non slippery handles in the first place.

I both agree and disagree with you one this one, but I want to explain my reasoning to you.

The LP Crinkle Coated grips are a great solution to the problem of slick and slippery handles, and one that I appreciate very much from a technical point of view. It does have some drawbacks that I think make the "sticky" gloves a viable option however.

The first is that the LP Visconti handle has a unique and different shape and the Belgians are a bit different/larger than many of the other kinds out there. That is all well and fine as pretty much al vendors have a unique slant on the standard grip design. Part of the problem with the LP handles however is simply that you have two options. Visconti (granted in a couple of sizes, but all are to small for me) and Belgian. That's it. If you don't like those two types of grip, or LP's version of them you are SOL. No grip extra grip retention for you unless you buy someone elses glove.

The second problem is that the crinkly coat only helps out foilists unless you are willing to give up some extra target area in the hand. Couple that with the fact that even if you are, I have come across a fair number of local referee's that swear a painted grip is illegal for epee (it is not) and it effectively makes the LP grips a foil grip, cutting in half the number of people likely to use it.

The third problem is cost. I have 5 weapons that travel with me to tourneys, for both epee and foil the odd time I fence it. If I like the LP grips and I am willing to expose extra target on my epees I am looking at almost $200 dollars for grips. That number goes up to $300 if I want the G pro! That will buy a lot of sticky gloves!

All of that aside, I think one of the reasons the "sticky" gloves did so well is that they look and felt new and different. The public could pick them up or look at them and tell they were something special. They could also give their advantages (extra grip) without having to modify your weapons. You can just by the glove and BAM you have a better grip on your weapons.

Part of the argument for a sticky glove I think is that gloves wear out, get lost, etc and have to be replaced on a fairly regular basis. The fairly low life of the grippy studs on the gloves is less an issue. I think people are much more reluctant to switch over to all new grips, especially expensive ones that they can't see in person at every big tourney (marketing presence is very important in all this. I can find Uhlmann/PBT/Allstar, TC, etc at pretty much any NAC I go to). Also a lot of fencers are not comfortable doing their own armoury work or just plain and simple don't know how.

So from an engineering standpoint I think the LP grips are a great solution. From a marketing standpoint I think that the "sticky" gloves are something that LP should have jumped on as well. Right or wrong on it the fencing public is consuming tons of the things. Be it the convenience, the cool look or the wow factor, they are the choice the public went with for whatever reason and for many they are not a bad option. Sort of like Beta vs. VHS I think.

As for guards I think you are missing the point, Leon Paul make a standard epee guard which has a reputation of being long lasting and strong we also make a light weight guard which is the lightest on the market.

If you want to compromise then pick a cheaper mid weight epee guards of Vniti or Allstar/Uhlmann, But if you want lightness and a complete epee which is lighter than most foils we think you should use our lightweight guards.

Does LP make a damn strong guard? Yes they do. I have met fencers with LP guards that they bought 10 or more years ago. The standard ones are a bit heavy however and that quality does come at a fairly high price. Realizing this you wisely came out with a lightweight option. I think the problem there was two fold.

The first is that your lightweight guards look just like the standard guards (except for the copper rivets). They is no catch or marketing hook that makes them standout and other fencers say "hey, what kind of guard is that you have there?". The Vniti guards have a very different look than any other guard. You see its unique look, pick it up and say "Wow, this is really light" and then the helpful person at the booth tells you it is the Titanium Vniti guard made from a special alloy. He goes on to point out that it is super strong, very light weight and best of all is of solid one piece construction so that it lasts a very long time. Is it all marketing BS and smoke and mirrors? Yes a lot of it, but it sells guards at a very premium price point. Why? Because it looks, feels and is newer/better/lighter than what came before. If it looked like every other guard it would not be near as popular cause less people would notice/find out about it.

My second problem with the LP lightweight guards is more of a personal preference thing that may or may not contribute to why they have not caught on like the Vniti guards have. The way they are made means they flex a bit on a really hard hit. It also means they are thinner in the edge than some guards. The size of my hand, the grips I use and the fairly aggressive cant of my blade means that on a very hard hit the lower edge slams into my pinky, smashing it against the grip. The first time it happened it hurt a lot. The second time there was bleeding, pain and I was not fencing for a few weeks. In that time I took off the LP guard and bought the Vniti. Have not regretted it yet. The Vniti guards are RIGID and do not seem to flex very much at all. also for whatever reason where it sits is a bit more friendly to my hand position.

Lastly, my personal experience does not mirror your own research. My guards tend to separate at the rivets. Granted I have always used lighter aluminum guards until the Vniti came out and I did not use the LP guard for very long so that may be part it. I think it may be that the LP guards last much longer than the cheaper light weight guards from other makers. However I have experience no noticeable wear where the blade enters the guards on my Vniti's, but I have only been using them a year or so.

This will only work if fencers are prepared to pay for innovation and quality.

Okay, this is where we really start to disagree. $22-25 for a bell guard? $30 for a grip? $60 for a glove? $200 for shoes? $300+ for a freakin bag?!? I think that fencers can and do pay for quality. Of course the way that many of them form an opinion of what is a quality item is through how that item is marketed. LP makes some of the best gear around. However it is both expensive and not always obvious to many fencers why that is. There is a certain flash lacking to hook the non-technical fencer.

As an example let me use Duelist Evolution 800n kit vs. the Sydney range. They both cost about the same. The LP kit is made in house by skilled tailors and often made to order. As I understand it the Evo kit is made outside the UK, maybe in South Africa? Both offer many of the same features including the wicking liners, quick release straps, quality stitching, and very smooth material. They are also comparable in weight and coolness. What is the difference? The Evo has cool looking black piping and logo and it is marketed as something new and innovative to a group that is desperate for new and innovative equipment. I see a lot more Evo Uniforms than I do Sydney range uniforms. Is the Evo better? I don't think so. I appreciate the quality of LP and I just plain like you guys... but if I didn't know you, was not an Armourer and tech junky as well as a fan of in house engineering/production I would probably go with the Evo because it is similarly innovative, well marketed and it just plain looks cool.

Now don't get me wrong here. I am not calling for style and slick marketing over substance. Both items in the example incorporated a lot of very innovative things that were well received by the market. The wicking liners, quick release straps, etc are all things that are both very popular and that are starting to be copied by other companies. I guess what I am saying is that the evolution in fencing gear (no pun intended) needs to not just be in the items themselves. If you make items using innovative technology, materials or techniques but you make them in such a way that they look just like everything else out there (especially if "everything else" is cheaper) then a lot of fencers are going to miss what is cool/unique/special about the item because the don't see the difference in the quality unless it is marketed in such a way that it is apparently something better. I hope I did not offend you with any of the above and I hope I made my point a little bit cleared.

[mfp]

Perhaps, one day, a fencer equipment manufacturer will get all wild and crazy on us and "innovate" to the point of catching up with the rest of the world on some of the simplest of things.

Take for example, straps ...

What would be so hard or expensive about using those quick side-release plastic buckle closures for jacket crotch straps, lower straps on plastrons or suspender/braces straps on fencing pants?

These closures are useful, cheap and seem to be everywhere (except on fencing gear). For example, I can buy a knapsack for under $26 that has 6 sets of the closures for its belts and straps.

For most fencing gear, sewn ends, D rings and or velcro (which doesn't hold up terribly well) are the state of the art -- why aren't snap closures more common?

Also, is it really necessary to sew one end of suspenders to the pants? Yes, it makes it less likely that you'll misplace them, however a bigger problem seem to be risking getting them tangled around washing machine rotors.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by mfp

Perhaps, one day, a fencer equipment manufacturer will get all wild and crazy on us and "innovate" to the point of catching up with the rest of the world on some of the simplest of things.

Take for example, straps ...

What would be so hard or expensive about using those quick side-release plastic buckle closures for jacket crotch straps, lower straps on plastrons or suspender/braces straps on fencing pants?

These closures are useful, cheap and seem to be everywhere (except on fencing gear). For example, I can buy a knapsack for under $26 that has 6 sets of the closures for its belts and straps.

My 4 year old PBT FIE uniform has 'em.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by mfp

Take for example, straps ...

What would be so hard or expensive about using those quick side-release plastic buckle closures for jacket crotch straps, lower straps on plastrons or suspender/braces straps on fencing pants?

LP, PBT and Duelist have been using them for years. They are much nicer than the alternative. When you get your next peice of quality kit that has these features in it contact the company and tell them you went with brand X on your purchase because it have modern comforts like the straps. LP and Duelist jackets also have very cool wicking liners similiar to under armor clothing...

[Mr Epee]

My six year old PBT FIE uniform had them

But they broke... I guess 5 years of almost daily use was too much for 'em

wussy

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

My six year old PBT FIE uniform had them

But they broke... I guess 5 years of almost daily use was too much for 'em

wussy

Just curious, was it the plastic buckle itself or the straps? The buckles can be replaced.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Just curious, was it the plastic buckle itself or the straps? The buckles can be replaced.

The female part broke half... which worked for a while

But then the male part broke

I have other FIE jackets, so I just stitched it perm... and changed it to practice jacket status.

[mfp]