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Archangelmike · 08-17-2005, 02:09 AM

Hi all,

Im new to this forum so I dont know if this question has been discussed before.

In regards to competitions under FIE rules, can a referee be replaced halfway during a 15 hit bout ?

Im asking this because I was referring a Sabre DE bout and being a competitor as well in the same comp, my DE bout was due to start. The DT demanded I stop referring at the 8 point break and find someone else even though both competitors wanted me to stay and finish it.

Is this allowed under the FIE rules ?
Does the DT have the power to enforce this decision and if so can someone please provide a reference as I cant find it in the FIE rule book ?

Many thanks.

Agent_V · 08-17-2005, 02:32 AM

Well, first off, a referee can only be replaced under "exceptional circumstances", e.g. physical disability of referee - not because the Bout commitee isn't liking some of your calls, or wants you somewhere else...

However, under FIE rules you can't be competing in the same tournament as you're refereeing, hence clearly your tournament isn't going strictly according to the rulebook. Even though you now don't have a leg to stand on (legally) against the DT's decision, it should not have been done - it's just not fair at all to the competitors, unless your refereeing was really terrible. Much of the game, especially in sabre, depends on the ref - switching the ref will change the game - definitely not fair at the 8-point break.
Not to mention that this is SABRE, for crying out loud, how long would the next 7 or so touches take? 2 minutes?

relevent rules are t.34 and t.37.

enjoy,
Alexander

edit: come to think of it, t.34 mentions that a referee cannot combine his/her function as a referee with any other activity during the *tournament*. What about multi-day tournaments? Has anyone at the international level seen examples of someone refereeing one day and fencing another at the same tournament? There are several very good young (under 30 years of age) referees, but how many of them are also competing at that level?

Archangelmike · 08-17-2005, 04:20 AM

Thanks for the info.

I should also mention that while I competed in the men's sabre comp, there was a women's sabre comp running at the same time, and I presided their bouts and experienced the same argument with the DT.

In this case does the DT still have the right to pull me from the middle of presiding a bout even if the 2 female fencers of that bout requested that I ref their match and argued with the DT not to swap me for another ref ?

Please note that there are no qualified sabre refs present at our comps and its left up to the most experienced sabeurs to referee.

darius · 08-17-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Well, first off, a referee can only be replaced under "exceptional circumstances", e.g. physical disability of referee

Alex, does blindness qualify as a physical disability worthy of intervention?

darius

prototoast · 08-17-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darius

Alex, does blindness qualify as a physical disability worthy of intervention?

darius

Only if it is caused by the head being so bloated as to block off the eyes entirely.

Zilverzmurfen · 08-17-2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangelmike

...the 8 point break...

What's an 8th point break?
Don't you have normal 1 minute breaks after 3 minutes in sabre DE's?

oiuyt · 08-17-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

What's an 8th point break?
Don't you have normal 1 minute breaks after 3 minutes in sabre DE's?

Sabre had a new rule introduced a couple of seasons ago where the first period of DE bouts ends when a fencer scores his/her 8th touch (assuming it hasn't already ended through the expiration of 3 minutes, an assumption that's generally a fairly safe one).

-B :)

Zilverzmurfen · 08-17-2005, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Sabre had a new rule introduced a couple of seasons ago where the first period of DE bouts ends when a fencer scores his/her 8th touch (assuming it hasn't already ended through the expiration of 3 minutes, an assumption that's generally a fairly safe one).

Oh, thanks for clarifying!

I've never heard of that rule, but then again I'm a pure bred épéeist.

Link14 · 08-17-2005, 02:14 PM

Yep, that 8 point rule finally gave us "less-in-shape" sabrest a rest. I think in my first 5 years of fencing, none of my DE bouts ever made it past the first period. ('course that's probably a reflection of my calibre of fencing too....

)

Inquartata · 08-17-2005, 02:17 PM

The average sabre DE lasts about 45 seconds total elapsed fencing time, Z. Most refs don't even bother keeping time. No little naps on the strip for us.

Additionally, veteran DEs go to 10 points and there's a minute break at 5 touches.

I hate them both, and would much prefer just to fence on through.

Frank Pratt · 08-17-2005, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

The average sabre DE lasts about 45 seconds total elapsed fencing time, Z. Most refs don't even bother keeping time. No little naps on the strip for us.

Additionally, veteran DEs go to 10 points and there's a minute break at 5 touches.

I hate them both, and would much prefer just to fence on through.

Indeed, most sabre referees don't even bother using a stopwatch. I heard this was even true at the NAC level, despite "the letter of the law!"

oiuyt · 08-17-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

Indeed, most sabre referees don't even bother using a stopwatch. I heard this was even true at the NAC level, despite "the letter of the law!"

It is almost unheard of for stopwatches to be used in sabre bouts at the NACs (other than for the minute break or for foil refs that are branching out). Don't recall seeing them used at the several world cups that I've attended either.

I did, however, once ref a sabre DE that finished at 10-8 after 9 minutes (no, I was NOT happy). Started timing after the first touch took an estimated 20 seconds. One fencer was a high school kid with limited experience who had never been introduced to either the concept of time limits in fencing (he fenced for what was, at the time, a sabre-only club, where such wasn't considered important to mention), or PiL. The other was a wily veteran fencer who had been run up and down the strip by a bunch of high school kids all day and was tired. Any time the vet felt the need for a 20-30 second break, out came the line.

The HS kid came up with the solution of beating the line, but didn't know what to do next when the vet fencer calmly didn't react, leaving the (now broken) line in place (presumably waiting for the finish of the attack, which he intended to attempt to parry).

On sabre days pretty much all my clock gets used for are the minute breaks and the 10-minute breaks.

-B :)

wbowman · 08-17-2005, 03:59 PM

I remember hearing that the 8-point break was actually brought about at the request of coaches, who wanted a chance to talk to their fencers at some point during a DE.
It was interesting to hear about the sabre DE that went the full 9 minutes. I took part in one that went into the second period once, and I thought that might be the record. Both my opponent in that bout and I are primarily epeeists AND veterans (and he's definitely older and wilier than I am).

Peach · 08-17-2005, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

The average sabre DE lasts about 45 seconds total elapsed fencing time, Z. Most refs don't even bother keeping time. No little naps on the strip for us.

Additionally, veteran DEs go to 10 points and there's a minute break at 5 touches.

I hate them both, and would much prefer just to fence on through.

Agreed. I loathe the 10-point bout, and the introduction of the 8-touch rule marked my downfall as an open-event fencer--many of my teenaged opponents got MUCH smarter after the break (sigh).

Allen Evans · 08-17-2005, 04:02 PM

I believe it was Charlie Washburn (I could be wrong about that) who told me that recently two German saber fencers decided to slow their bout down at a World Cup so that it took the full 3 minute period..."just because they could".