New Article: New Foil Rules and their Impacts

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by pigeonmeister

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Sounds like a broken record!

That's our Alan. He might be a sophisticated chat-bot. Sometimes not so sophisticated. But we love him.

/not a romantic sort of love

[Alan]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

That's our Alan. He might be a sophisticated chat-bot. Sometimes not so sophisticated. But we love him.

/not a romantic sort of love

Oh Thanks !


I am too tired of repeating the evidence to be sophisticated.

Alan, waiting for the new test timings ...

[dramamine]

Just a comment. I'm 5'8, I'm kind of fast but not really, and a lot of my attacks are pretty delayed. I RARELY get locked out by the box fencing guys that are much bigger than me. What pisses me off though is when I'm fencing some twig that will hit me by doing this sort of action:

I prepare and push them slowly

They back up and start to get twitchy, so I accelerate and make a deep feint.

They do say counter 6,

I disengage and accelerate, but they do that sort of counter six duck the head and aimlessly throw the tip somewhere by my target thing, and hit me. Because of the contact time I can nail them on the mask and only turn on a light 50% of the time, and since they're so skinny and their arms are usually tucked tight to their bodies I have trouble hitting them on the flank. Admittedly though this is really a problem with my fencing that I am starting to solve by getting better at angulated hits and preparing my attack better (counter time).

It also works to hit the mask from an downward angle, and then the tip bounces off the mask, doesn't turn on a light but skips down to the lamé. But seriously, what kind of bull**** is that?

[dramamine]

As far as "good" ripostes being locked out by the timing, I think it depends on your definition of a "good" riposte. I have a pretty fast remise, and lately I have been locking out a LOT of ripostes that I would have called against me on the old timing (1-2's, the sort of parry coupé-coupé things, etc) but weren't really in time according to the rules. Most of the lockouts are because of indecision on the riposter's part though, which I think the new timings don't allow for as much of (you need more closed eyes, decisive actions, at least against the counter attack remisy fencers)

[Gav]

Can someone [Alan] tell me what's wrong with Romankov's Fencing?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by dramamine

Just a comment. I'm 5'8, I'm kind of fast but not really, and a lot of my attacks are pretty delayed. I RARELY get locked out by the box fencing guys that are much bigger than me. What pisses me off though is when I'm fencing some twig that will hit me by doing this sort of action:

I prepare and push them slowly

They back up and start to get twitchy, so I accelerate and make a deep feint.

They do say counter 6,

I disengage and accelerate, but they do that sort of counter six duck the head and aimlessly throw the tip somewhere by my target thing, and hit me. Because of the contact time I can nail them on the mask and only turn on a light 50% of the time, and since they're so skinny and their arms are usually tucked tight to their bodies I have trouble hitting them on the flank. Admittedly though this is really a problem with my fencing that I am starting to solve by getting better at angulated hits and preparing my attack better (counter time).

It also works to hit the mask from an downward angle, and then the tip bounces off the mask, doesn't turn on a light but skips down to the lamé. But seriously, what kind of bull**** is that?

Well, you could hit them on the lamé. I'll admit, I'm continuously having the same problem, as my clubmates keep designing new counterattacks, or practicing counterattacks they see at tournaments. It's difficult to hit a counterattacker, but not impossible. If you're having continuous problems with this, try using feints to force the counterattack, then hit your opponent on the shoulder or back.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Gav

Can someone [Alan] tell me what's wrong with Romankov's Fencing?

Nothing wrong.

I have seen him win the CIP (called Martini or UAP) in Paris. He was great.

But foil has evolved since then to become a more modern sport with more
physical intensity. This foil is appreciated by a vast majority of foilists and
even, as Athens has prooved, appreciated as a TV show by many non fencers
provided a good commentator explains some rules.
These spectators even like the aesthetic of the traditional masks (no need of these ugly and dangerous clear visor masks !!!)

It is a different epok but guess that, non fencers (i have tried this many times) prefer largely to watch modern foil than Romankov's time foil : they find it more spectacular.


All this nice foil should not be compromised by some Romankov nostalgics
who do not accept that foil has evolved allied to some people who want
to spoil foil in the sake of telegeny without even consulting the foilists themselves !

[Gav]

Alan I've missed your little tirades!

And that was quite a good one - you actually framed your ideas well. I'm going to rep you for that.

From my own experience it's not clear that people prefer new foil over "Romankov Foil". I certainly don't watch as much 'Modern Foil' (as in the timings you prefer) as I do Epee or Sabre. I've actually fallen asleep watching Foil under those conditions. Now, whether the new timings are any better I don't know (in fact it seems obvious that there are problems with the implementation), however I would contend that it's not clear that the Foil you want is better (as in more viewable) than "Romankov-nostalgic-Foil". Different horses different courses and all that.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Gav

Alan I've missed your little tirades!

And that was quite a good one - you actually framed your ideas well. I'm going to rep you for that.

From my own experience it's not clear that people prefer new foil over "Romankov Foil". I certainly don't watch as much 'Modern Foil' (as in the timings you prefer) as I do Epee or Sabre. I've actually fallen asleep watching Foil under those conditions. Now, whether the new timings are any better I don't know (in fact it seems obvious that there are problems with the implementation), however I would contend that it's not clear that the Foil you want is better (as in more viewable) than "Romankov-nostalgic-Foil". Different horses different courses and all that.

Thanks Gav.

Do honestlty a simple test :

find a non fencer and show him

- the Omnes-Borella final which is still online somewhere and is considered
as a summit of classical foil.

- the Guyart- Cassara semi final in Athens

and ask him which one he prefers.

I think he as a non-fencer will be bored by all the "magnificent" blade work
of the Omnes-Borella final.

[Gav]

Well if I can find someone to go through this I'll let you know. In my experience people would rather watch Epee or Sabre (Sabre* first according to those who have watched the Athens footage with me) instead of Foil - "Romankov era style", previous or current timings.


* This has nothing to do with the alterations to the Sabre timings, wireless-ness of the event or even the little flashing lights. It was everything to do with the obvious competitive tension - especially the US Russia match. Non-Fencers just don't care about the technical changes that have been made - they don't know enough about fencing TO care.

[Feraud]

This subject is just about worn out, but:
I did fence the other night with an Eigertek box (normally we use Favero)
Wow! It was ridiculous! I couldn’t get a single straight attack to light up, the bout was almost impossible as neither of us could score. And this wasn’t top level fast fencing, my opponent was a beginning fencer wearing chest protector.
I think there really is a difference between manufacturers because I don’t experience anything like that with the Favero
Yeah the timings sure are in need of some adjustment.