New Article: New Foil Rules and their Impacts

[dilznik]

Originally Posted by keith

...and none of it would work against someone who would beat you anyway.

but to explain;

the stance is immobile (has to be to keep everything covered) so it relies on you pissing of an opponent and letting them beat themselves - which is a sound tactic. Any slow progressive attack ending with a brisk final motion with angulation will work. Unless of course they are just better than you in which case quit moaning and do some practice.

Technically, nothing would work against someone who would beat you anyway. Think about it.

And apparently you didn't see the Div 2 or 3 at the Summer Nats. To wit, the guy that won the Div 3 and got 3rd in Div 2. Seemed to work very well for him.

[keith]

Originally Posted by dilznik

Technically, nothing would work against someone who would beat you anyway. Think about it.

indeed

Originally Posted by dilznik

And apparently you didn't see the Div 2 or 3 at the Summer Nats. To wit, the guy that won the Div 3 and got 3rd in Div 2. Seemed to work very well for him.

see your own point. Just because you can't beat someone and think they have poor technique doesn't mean they are no good - in the same way the guy who used to hit you with 15 flicks to same spot on the top of your shoulder is no good because they only have one attack.

And (with only a little disrespect intended) I am not sure we should really be assessing the state of fencing with the new timings based on the goings on in DIVII and DIVIII.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by keith

And (with only a little disrespect intended) I am not sure we should really be assessing the state of fencing with the new timings based on the goings on in DIVII and DIVIII.

I disagree. These new timings seem to me to have been intended, in part at least, to fix the pathetic state of fencing at the level equivalent to our Div 2/3. In other words, fencers who did very well at that level with no technique except a flick.

Personally, I had problems with small lefties covering target (and such) for the first few months of the new timings, but I've practiced finishing to flank incessantly, and they no longer bother me. Very good point control finishing to flank and shoulder, combined with a flick good enough to hit exposed back is good enough to defeat most of the people who hunch over. The guy who won Div3, I assume, was able to defend against these attacks, but I think that fencers who are skilled at defending in this way are few and far between.

Have others had different experiences?

[telkanuru]

I really don't care much about foil, but as it's come up in this thread, I do object to the term foilepee or Foipee, or whatever. Epee, unlike the new form of foil, dons't suck.

[dilznik]

Originally Posted by keith

And (with only a little disrespect intended) I am not sure we should really be assessing the state of fencing with the new timings based on the goings on in DIVII and DIVIII.

Ouch. I was a curious bystander actually, standing with a bunch of coaches who couldn't believe the guy could win, but ouch. That was just low. I think you just insulted a couple of hundred fencers who spent good money and vacation time to come and fence in those divisions. It's almost as if you don't find that these divisions are worth having. Or maybe that the only people qualified to comment are people who are in the top 30 of the FIE rankings. Ouch.

And if you watch World Cup videos (I'd lend you mine but you can't watch them on NTSC, sorry) you'll see they do it, too. The dude that won in, uh, I'll have to get back to you... but anyway, one guy won a WC with a technique that was little more then half lunging while ducking as a counter attack, and hiding behind his front leg and bib, and covering his shoulder with his head. He won a World Cup. Go ahead, review your videos. What, you don't buy the World Cup videos? Huh. Anyway, I stole his technique, not the other guy's. It works well. Who needs classical fencing? Creative body positioning andcounter attacking seem to do the trick. I can't wait to use it if I ever move back to the US and fence.

[keith]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I disagree. These new timings seem to me to have been intended, in part at least, to fix the pathetic state of fencing at the level equivalent to our Div 2/3. In other words, fencers who did very well at that level with no technique except a flick.

no they have simply changed the type of 'one action' fencer who clogs up the lower levels of the sport.

it used to be - the one flick wonder, now it appears to be the infamous crab like quasimodo. For any fencer who puts in the time and effort to train through these barriers then they just fade away; and the barriers exist both for the opponents of these fencers and for themselves. If you have a succesful, if limited strategic base, it is often very hard to work to broaden and deepen the game.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Personally, I had problems with small lefties covering target (and such) for the first few months of the new timings, but I've practiced finishing to flank incessantly, and they no longer bother me. Very good point control finishing to flank and shoulder, combined with a flick good enough to hit exposed back is good enough to defeat most of the people who hunch over. The guy who won Div3, I assume, was able to defend against these attacks, but I think that fencers who are skilled at defending in this way are few and far between.

... this is my point, if you know such and such an approach from an opponent causes you strife it should be easy (assuming a willingness to train) for you and your coach to work around the fencers who inhabit efficient tactical dead ends.

[dilznik]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

The guy who won Div3, I assume, was able to defend against these attacks...

I'm sure he's a really nice guy, and at least he didn't appear to be wearing a manplate, so he's got that in his favor, but he actually didn't appear to be too good at defending against these attacks. They just bounced off. Flick, bounce, counter attack, one light. There were a lot of white lights, too. Granted, he didn't JUST have a funky body position. He also appeared to have a slinky for a spine, twisting like Neo in the Matrix. The first one. The one that didn't suck. On the roof. When he got shot. Remember? Never mind.

[dilznik]

Originally Posted by keith

...the one flick wonder, now it appears to be the infamous crab like quasimodo...

I have no idea what this means. I can't help, however, feeling offended. And it's not a hump, you mean person! It's a callous. From... oversleeping. And I'd appreciate it if you stopped looking at it.

[keith]

Originally Posted by dilznik

Ouch. I was a curious bystander actually, standing with a bunch of coaches who couldn't believe the guy could win, but ouch. That was just low. I think you just insulted a couple of hundred fencers who spent good money and vacation time to come and fence in those divisions. It's almost as if you don't find that these divisions are worth having. Or maybe that the only people qualified to comment are people who are in the top 30 of the FIE rankings. Ouch.

uhm no, these events are limited to C and under fencers so I was making the point that any fencer who has the tactical and technical skill to break down this kind of limited approach would probably have made it to the B level. Just my opinion of course but the idea that one of the awkward squad could win an event like this strikes me as no surprise.

Originally Posted by dilznik

And if you watch World Cup videos (I'd lend you mine but you can't watch them on NTSC, sorry) you'll see they do it, too. The dude that won in, uh, I'll have to get back to you... but anyway, one guy won a WC with a technique that was little more then half lunging while ducking as a counter attack, and hiding behind his front leg and bib, and covering his shoulder with his head. He won a World Cup. Go ahead, review your videos. What, you don't buy the World Cup videos? Huh. Anyway, I stole his technique, not the other guy's. It works well. Who needs classical fencing? Creative body positioning andcounter attacking seem to do the trick. I can't wait to use it if I ever move back to the US and fence.

But they've always done it - little head parries, body twists and duck lunges etc etc. Nothing wrong with doing it either - hell if you can win fights with it do it. You seem to be thinking that I disagree with you when you say that some of these actions have become more effective with the new timing - they have but all the old ways of dealing with them still work as well. No biggee.

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I'm guessing that your faster is probably similar to their slower. Maybe you can meet in the middle?

LOL. Ouch, if it weren't close to the truth.

But really the actions have sped up across the board. Before the block-time change, you could be as slow as you wanted -- you just had to get the tip on. And before the impact-time change you could hit anywhere on target w/ the flick. So the difficult attacks in foil weren't the fast-and-sudden ones, it was the strolling marches where e.g. Cassara would walk towards his opponents and collect points.

For the time being, that's gone, and the fast lunge / adv-lunge has primacy. Those are faster than a promenade.

One could say that, minute to minute, there is now less action than before the timing change. There can often be a lot of jockeying and then a flurry of simplistic action. So in that sense I agree with the maestro's article that foil fencing has slowed down.

[OROD]

Regarding the problem of people intentionally using their bib to prevent valid attacks, and this being the impetus for the "bib as target area" proposed changes... I have to say that this is a bad way to fix this.

Firstly, people intentionally doing this is not really a huge problem, since the attacker still has right-of-way, even if he hits off-target. So in the end the person doing it doesnt get a whole lot from it. Also, I really dont see it happening all that much. So given those two things, I think making a big change like having the bib as target area is a horrible mistake. You risk changing the game in ways you cant yet understand and adding great expense to fencers, and for what? It's better to just accept the fact that every now and then an attack will yield a white light and move on. Really, if the person using such a tactic cant do better, than he's probably not going to win the bout anyway.

Ultimately, there's ALWAYS going to be people on whom it's hard to score. I mean, I have a hard time hitting little kids. So should we not allow them to fence, or maybe make masks and bibs target area on them? How about those spaztic people who twist and turn all over the place, they're hard to hit too. Should we make those actions illegal? Maybe stiffen up fencing jackets so they cant turn like that? Common, you just have to deal with some things... and sometimes hitting a bib is one of them.


.

[dilznik]

Originally Posted by OROD

It's better to just accept the fact that every now and then an attack will yield a white light and move on.

That's fine and all, except that there's another possible rule change to get rid of the white lights. So now you've hit a guy in the bib because he ducked his head, and then he scored on you on the counter attack.

Clearly, adding more target isn't the right answer to fix foil fencing. Clearly the way to fix it is to change the flippin' machines back the way they flippin' were and instruct the flippin' directors that an attack with the flippin' point aimed at the flippin' ceiling isn't a flippin' attack. It's flippin' preparation.

[rsy]

Originally Posted by dilznik

I'm sure he's a really nice guy, and at least he didn't appear to be wearing a manplate, so he's got that in his favor, but he actually didn't appear to be too good at defending against these attacks. They just bounced off. Flick, bounce, counter attack, one light. There were a lot of white lights, too. Granted, he didn't JUST have a funky body position. He also appeared to have a slinky for a spine, twisting like Neo in the Matrix. The first one. The one that didn't suck. On the roof. When he got shot. Remember? Never mind.

What is interesting is until the change in the debounce time, this fencer had no luck at all. His hunched-over stance and his tendency to cover his chest with his weapon arm (elbow in the belly, hand in 4) causes him to drop his front shoulder. Add to that he never learned to parry 9 means that he is contunually open to a parry 6 riposte/flick to his shoulder or upper back. Under the old timing any duffer who could waive and slap a blade in that direction got a light. With the timing change, however, he has been saved since most fencers at that level don't really know how to flick. His problem is that when he comes up against stronger, more experienced fencers who can still put a point on with a flick, he is right back where he started from.

-r

[dilznik]

Originally Posted by rsy

What is interesting is until the change in the debounce time, this fencer had no luck at all. His hunched-over stance and his tendency to cover his chest with his weapon arm (elbow in the belly, hand in 4) causes him to drop his front shoulder. Add to that he never learned to parry 9 means that he is contunually open to a parry 6 riposte/flick to his shoulder or upper back. Under the old timing any duffer who could waive and slap a blade in that direction got a light. With the timing change, however, he has been saved since most fencers at that level don't really know how to flick. His problem is that when he comes up against stronger, more experienced fencers who can still put a point on with a flick, he is right back where he started from.

-r

Right. Under the old system, he'd have had his can handed to him because he'd be flick fodder. Under the new system, next year he'll probably have his can handed to him when he fences the upper level stuff since he won't be allowed to fence the lower level stuff anymore. I guess we'll see.

New rules, old, rules, whatever... does anyone have an idea how long it would take for them to change any of this stuff they're talking about? It took years for them to change the contact times, so will it take years to change it again, if they even do? Or are they more likely to rush these changes through, I wonder. Because, you know, why would anyone watch foil on TV in the state it is now?

As an aside, what is the criteria for making these changes? Do they have focus groups of random TV viewing dufuses who sit in a room watching fencing videos saying things like "that fishing manouver is dumb. I'd only watch this if they stopped doing that"? Or is it seriously the random whims of the IOC and FIE?

[keith]

Originally Posted by dilznik

As an aside, what is the criteria for making these changes?

ouija board.

Roch is channeling the spirits of deceased classicists.

who apparently have a vicious sense of humour

[grotto]

Originally Posted by rocky

Yes, that's what we're trying to stop, foil turning into epee. You shouldn't have to take parry in foil as you would in epee, because foil is about right of way, not about who touches first, as in epee.

Honestly, I can live with the new rules, but it would be nice if they'd moderate them just a little.

I would have to disagree there a bit. Clearing the line sufficiently enough to bring a proper repost is identical in both weapons. In foil you get the protection of Right of way once you clear the line, in epee it is self evident, one light. I am not talking about parries with opposition, just good clean parries. Now I do think that changes were half baked and not well planned. Definitely against making any more changes before they get this all sorted out and smooth first....

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by grotto

I would have to disagree there a bit. Clearing the line sufficiently enough to bring a proper repost is identical in both weapons. In foil you get the protection of Right of way once you clear the line, in epee it is self evident, one light. I am not talking about parries with opposition, just good clean parries. Now I do think that changes were half baked and not well planned. Definitely against making any more changes before they get this all sorted out and smooth first....

Epee parries have to be slightly larger than foil parries, because they protect more target, and need to clear the line better to prevent the remise. If you use epee parries in foil, it they will be easy to disengage, and it will be harder for you to riposte, and easier for your opponent to counterparry. If you use foil parries in epee, you have a good chance of being hit before your riposte.


Keith, I agree with your assessment of the result of the new timings, but my statement that these timings affect Div 2/3 the most still stands. And therefore, those lower levels are a good place to look to see the results these new timings are having.

[gladius]

Here are the closing remarks by the maestro about the various postings and comments in this thread to his article.

The difficulty to execute the flicks because of the new (longer) impact times, and the new (shorter) blocking times make both "parry-ripostes" and "attacks" more risky because they open up the possibility of counterattacks. The two changes in the timings are complementary aspects of the same problem. In some cases, if one cannot reach the target with a flick, he has to reach it with a slower touch which often falls beyond the 300 ms.

The connection between the change in the impact time and the change in the blocking time is particularly evident when both fencers are close to each other, "stretta misura," and must find the sufficient space to execute the touch. Obviously, this can be seen much better with fencers of high technical caliber who have a much greater speed of execution and determination when launching counterattacks.

Conversely, the resulting increase in "pumping" hits is a problem which affects in particular the young and inexperienced fencers. They become tempted to impart more force to the touch in order to trigger the scoring light, and this leads them to charge with the arm pulled backwards trying to increase the impact of the foil tip on the target. This pumping action with the arm pulled back "dirties" the technical execution of the hit and represents a very serious problem. Paradoxically, this is in sharp contrast with the return to a "pure" foil fencing according to the tradition, which the new rules were supposed to promote.

Thank you for all your comments.

Maestro Alberto Bernacchi


Note: Stay tuned for the next article about the different terminologies in the Italian and French, i.e., rest of the world, schools of fencing.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by dilznik

As an aside, what is the criteria for making these changes?

1) Killing foil by transforming it into this ugly Foilepee we have seen last year

2) Romankov's epok nostalgy

3) aversion of His Majesty for flicks

4) money, money, money ...

[pigeonmeister]

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Sounds like a broken record!