Does the left hand know what the right is doing?

[Inquartata]

One of the other sabre fencers at my club injured his weapon hand---his right---a few weeks ago but couldn't stand the prospect of 6 weeks without fencing while it healed. So he's been coming to practices and bouting left-handed in the interim. Though he's doing better than I would in similar circumstances, naturally his performance isn't anywhere near what is is right-handed. Which leads me to a question:

Since most people will have vastly inferior skill with the off hand, why should one's normal rating apply for purposes of entering competitions? For example, I have a B, and thus cannot fence in Div II or III NACs. If I were to fence left-handed, why should I still be disqualified from fencing them? My abilities would not be anywhere near B level, so why in these circumstances should I still be considered a B at all?

Has this question ever been broached with the USFA? I mean, I'm sure that any request along these lines would be summarily rejected, but what could their rationale be?

[prototoast]

I think the obvious answer is that the USFA doesn't track handedness.

[Mauler]

Please note that I came from an area where no directors or tournament organizers have ever read the USFA Rule Book (and many of them didn't even know of its existence). IOW we kinda did things our way. Naturally, what I'm about to say wouldn't apply to the real USFA world....

Having said that,

During my local competition days, I used to fence right handed or left handed depending on who showed up, and how interesting I wanted the day to be. I was primarily a right handed Sabre fencer. On occasions, I would fence all day registered as a left handed alter ego. Sometimes I even fenced in a same tournament as two different personalities -- say, they needed one more fencer to make the tournament a rated one.

Sometimes this was done for humorous reasons, sometimes for serious (i.e. injury), and sometimes for political(?) reasons (there were tournaments where my coach needed a specific person to win, so he had me fence left handed instead), etc.

Obviously none of this is ok in any place where things are run properly along USFA guidelines and rules. After all, I didn't even carry a second USFA membership card!

But as a reply to the point raised by the original post... Yes, I did in fact keep seperate track of my two different fencing personalities in terms of competitive results, so I would register myself or my alter ego appropriately. Heck, later on, semi-seriously, I even allowed for a training routine to be adjusted from time to time to accomodate my off hand fencing. I've won D rated tournaments this way....

This, btw, was a lot easier to accomplish back in the dry Sabre days with no restriction on footwork. More or less, we were free to just run track-style and swing, so it wasn't as hand-specific as the other weapons at low enough levels. I was also ambidextrous, able to write and use chopsticks with my off hand.

[tbryan]

Since most people will have vastly inferior skill with the off hand, why should one's normal rating apply for purposes of entering competitions?

Good point, but I imagine that there just aren't that many fencers in this situation to make it worth the effort to update all of the records to track handedness with each rating. The current system encourages fencers to fence always with their strongest hand. Tracking handedness with ratings would probably encourage more fencers to learn to fence with some proficiency with both hands. Like you said, I don't see any of the governing bodies going for such a rule change. I can just imagine the arguments over the rules about what should happen if a fencer is injured and must continue with a weaker hand? Would the tournament rating drop? Could a fencer at a Div-I competition be kicked out when he tries to fence with his off hand since he's not a C-rated fencer with that hand? Like I said, making such a rule change now doesn't have enough benefit to be worth the headache.

I admit that it would be amusing to get to see the best Div-I or Div-IA fencers attempting to fence a Div-III event with their off hand. And, thinking of that, I just can't resist posting this quote. It's the one time that it's actually almost on topic...

Inigo: I admit it, you are better then I am.
Westley: Then why are you smiling?
Inigo: Because I know something you do not know.
Westley: And what is that?
Inigo: I am not left handed!

On a related note, has anyone ever fenced with their off-hand during (some part of) a tournament?

[Joe biebel]

I have had a fair amount of experience with this situation. Due to a nagging and worsening injuries on my dominant (left) side, I fenced an entire season-and-a-half with my opposite hand. When I did fence tournaments again, I would play in the pools with my right hand and switch at some point (usually the DE's) to my left hand but using "0" length blades. Eventually, my left arm regained it's full strength and I only give lessons now right-handed.

I did feel that there was a "hole" in the rules regarding ratings, as at first, I was pitiful, but pitiful with a "B". This "inflated rating" (right-handed) skewed tournament strength several times and put me "unfairly" ahead of many other fencers. Secondly, my inflated rating made it impossible to compete in tournaments more suited to my right-handed skill level. Eventually, after more than a year, I became, "less pitiful" and even managed to earn a "C" (except that I was already a "B") right-handed.

There is no special rule to cover this situation. The rarity of the occurence is, I'm sure, the reason for this. I do understand that it is impossible to have rules to cover every contingency and situation. The rules book would grow to an unmanageable size.

One funny incident (the Princess Bride Quote reminded me of this) happened at a Vet. NAC during this transition where I fenced pools right-handed. I was talking before the first round with a couple of friends (competitors) when another competitor, unknown to me, came up and asked in an aggressive manner "is it true you are fencing the pool right-handed, but are really left-handed?" I answered, "Yes, thats the plan". The competitor said " well I'm in your pool, and I don't think very much of the idea. Why are you doing this? I immediately answered, "You have to understand, if I use my left hand it is over to quickly, I get no satifaction". This immediately made the two guys I was originally was talking to burst out laughing (knowing this was a quote or near quote from the movie Princess Bride) while the competitor walked off livid. I started to walk after him apologizing that it was just a line from a movie, a joke, humor, but he would have no part of it. We met later in the pool and I got 5 lucky touches (right-handed) in a row. I have not seen him since.

[Mr Epee]

If letter rankings carry over between sexes, I don't see any problem for them to carry over between hands...

Sometimes it's important to fence with the off hand, because it's more like having someone else fence for you. It's just a different feeling.

Actually, I just thought of a cool way for DFP to earn his next ranking. :-)

[Sciurus-Rex]

I also support separate ratings for whether you're wearing your contacts or fencing an event vision-impaired. And hair length ratings as well, to show how extra hair will throw off your balance compared with baldness.

[mrbiggs]

I think the obvious answer is that the USFA doesn't track handedness.

And I don't think it has the resources to track something that only happens to 10 or 20 people a year. We already have three ratings apiece, and most fencers only use one.

[rcmatthews]

Interestingly, the different sides of the body do seem to know what the other is doing. For instance, I have heard of many instances of someone say, injuring their right leg, and working out the left leg to keep up strength in the right. I believe that there is some carryover, but nowhere close to 100%.

[Cipher]

What happens when you come across one of those people that is technically dominant with one hand, but performs many actions with greater proficiency with their non-dominant hand? Or with one that is truly ambidexterous? All in all there are just too many unique situations. Regulating handedness would be incredibly difficult. In the case of injuries, one just has to accept that they are injured and won't be competing at their normal level.

[govsecrets]

i tried fencing left-handed with a right-handed girl who was also trying left handed out with me and it was very funny. we couldn't exactly parry 4 or riposte very well. it was fun but we stopped when our coach started shooting us dirty looks

[DHCJr]

What happens when you come across one of those people that is technically dominant with one hand, but performs many actions with greater proficiency with their non-dominant hand? Or with one that is truly ambidexterous? All in all there are just too many unique situations. Regulating handedness would be incredibly difficult. In the case of injuries, one just has to accept that they are injured and won't be competing at their normal level.

This is very True. One year on the Long Beach State team we had 2 Left-handers and 1 Right-hander on the Epee team. Halfway through the year, the Right-hander broke his hand and switched hand and did better. The reason, he was born Left-handed but the parents wouldn't let him do anything with the Left-hand.

[CheekyCanuck]

Being a righty, I have had to fence left. Right handed, I can hold my own at my level. Left handed, I might as well just throw my sword at the person, I'm just as likely to hit.

As far as rules go, I would think it would be simple to just say you cannot switch hands in a tournament.
If you’re thinking that someone could enter as a lefty (being a righty) with a D rating, then switch mid way to their right to which they're ranked B or C. That would be the same as playing down your skill level and if caught a nice little black card for you.

As far as tracking! Computers were invented for just such an application. Mysql is the best little FREE tool for such a thing, paired with PHP and you're an unstoppable tracking maniac.

[telkanuru]

My collegiate coach coaches left handed because he is unable to control his ingrained muscle reactions in his right, so he reacts to students actions in lessons as he would in competition, and that's no good. He has, however, often talked about entering a tournament twice, once as L. Yama****a, and once as R. Yama****a. Question is what would happen if he had to fence a DE against himself....


Also a tangent, apparently foot/eye dominance is more important than hand dominance. I know of at least one fencer fairly high up on senior points who is right-handed, but fences left due to the above.

I think hand-based ratings are not viable due to administrative reasons.

[Mr Epee]

I love how some people try to claim that their complete lack of self-control is a good thing.

AAAHHH!!! I can't control my reactions, my beautiful reactions.

How freaking easy is to beat this guy?

[telkanuru]

How freaking easy is to beat this guy?

Well, when he fenced, he was on Senior points, so not that easy, apparently.

[Li'l Bebe]

i tried fencing left-handed with a right-handed girl who was also trying left handed out with me and it was very funny. we couldn't exactly parry 4 or riposte very well. it was fun but we stopped when our coach started shooting us dirty looks

My coach makes us fence with the off-hand sometimes. It's PURE EVIL because she doesn't even let us get left handed gloves, or foils, she makes us turn our gloves inside out and turn our right handed foil upside down and try to hold it (and it's a pistol grip, so that's nearly impossible). I can advance and retreat, but I can't lunge to save my life when I'm using the off-hand. Once my coach made my friend do an entire tournament on the off-hand, because it would be "a learning experiance." (Our coach's nickname is "Satan")

[Inquartata]

Hah! There's a foilist at our club that does that. He's left-handed, but is always breaking the left-handed foils...so he just uses right-handed ones. Pistol-gripped ones.

And he STILL does well.

Anyway, I still think I ought to be able to fence left-handed in Div II and III. Enough people know me at the national level that I don't think I could get away with switching back to right-handed in media res.

[Mr Epee]

My coach makes us fence with the off-hand sometimes. It's PURE EVIL ...snip... (Our coach's nickname is "Satan")

Funny, I always thought he would be taller