Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Philistine · 08-08-2002, 12:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
{snip}
My thought is that you should learn to fence with the foil, then decide whether you'd like to specialize in the weapon or move on to another weapon.
<hr /></blockquote>

Why?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
{snip}
Foil taught me many things about fencing that I've used to make my transition to epee all the more easier.
<hr /></blockquote>

But woldn't learning epee from the start (or earlier on, at least) have made your transition to epee even easier than it was learning foil?

To simplify:

Given two fencers of equal ability and motivation begin fencing on day 1.

Fencer A, begins fencing by taking up foil for x amount of time and then switches to epee for y amount of time.

Fencer B begins fencing by taking up epee and never learns foil at all.

After x+y time, who would you think would be the better epee fencer, all other things being equal? You seem to be saying A. This seems counterintuitive.

Now, to be fair, I am in the position of Fencer B (except it was sabre rather than epee), so that may be clouding my judgment, but it still seems to defy common sense to maintain that A will be the better epee fencer than B.

--Philistine

veeco · 08-08-2002, 02:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
But foil is much more athletic, there is an actual fencing conversation going on. When a touch goes on and on with fencers actually exchanging right of way and going up and down the strip, you really get a sense of what fencing's about. It makes you shiver.<hr /></blockquote>"fencers actually exchanging ROW" explains why you think foil is more exciting to other fencers (though you are watching some pretty bad sabre if there isn't an exchange of ROW). to the UNinitiated, however, all of those exchanges are meaningless.... that is why all the uninitiated I've ever talked to at competitions enjoy watching sabre more.
<hr /></blockquote>Those exchanges are not meaningless for the uninitiated in foil, because they are easy to perceive. When you watch foil, you actually can see the guy taking the other guy's blade, or evading an attack and starting one on their own.

This kind of actions happen much more rarely, even in high level sabre.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
<blockquote>quote:<hr />it's almost like your brain is overloaded by all these feelings and emotions the first time you see it.<hr /></blockquote>BS! the FIRST time you see it, as an uninitiated member of the public, you do not see the nuances. you see two guys bouncing around, and occasionally taking pot shots. eventually, one of 'em "gets lucky" and scores on one of those pot shots.

newbies specifically do NOT appreciate the vast amounts of time in epee that people aren't getting hit.

<hr /></blockquote>OK, OK, you're right, it's BS. I guess I went on a tangent and described emotions which were coming from an initiated eye and forgot for a minute the "newbie" perspective that I was trying to point out. But that doesn't make epee a worse weapon, does it?

On the other hand, I still think newbies can appreciate those times when people are not getting hit. And they will find epee or foil more exciting than sabre. They can see the jostling for position. They can see the exchange of beats and disengages of the blades, particularly because epee blades are bigger and not as whippy as the foil and sabre blades.

Basically, sabre has a whippy blade and too fast actions, no realism.

Foil is athletic, the blade is whippy, but you get to see those cool flicks to the back and the back and forth down the strip as fencers are trying to get or keep right of way (note that you don't have to understand right of way to appreciate the beauty of this kind of actions).

And Epee is stragegic, it easier to see the actions because the blades are bigger and the actions are slower. There is however a good deal of acceleration at the end. It's kind of like appreciating the work of a sniper, in a way.

Inquartata · 08-08-2002, 07:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
Sabre is not theatrical. It's boring to watch. You say it's exciting because you know fencing. But I don't know of anyone who's new to the sport who told me right of the bat that they like to watch sabre.<hr /></blockquote>How large is your sample?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You find it amusing first, but after a while it becomes repetitive. If you will, you can see sabre like a sudden adrenaline rush you get when you watch a scary movie for the first time. But the next time you watch it, it's boring because you know what's going to happen. And I have been watching high level sabre bouts for a long time, trust me.<hr /></blockquote>Firstly, never trust a foilist!

But seriously, I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps it's just a matter of taste, or the ways our brains are wired. Some people will never "get" sabre, the way some people never "get" abstract art, or jazz, or what have you, no matter how long and diligently they try.

To me, sabre is the ONLY weapon that's exciting. Most epee is like watching paint dry ( there are exceptions, naturally ). Foil is like watching paint dry with lots of meaningless interruptions."Fence...halt. Off target, nothing done. Fence...halt. Attack off target, nothing done. Fence...halt. Riposte off-target..." Gad, but I hate those poxy white lights!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
In fact, I would argue that 85% of the sabre fencers that exist nowadays have chosen sabre not because they wanted to do it, but because they were somehow pushed towards it in one way or another (they were fencing in a sabre only club, or the first coach they talked to was a sabre coach). Of course, I could be wrong, but I have a hunch here.<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps we could start a poll. Brethren?

Let me start: I knew I wanted to do sabre before I'd even seen it done. I took a fencing class that was foil only, and vexed the teacher no end, I am sure, by agitating for at least an intro to sabre. As soon as I learned where there was a club, I was off. Walked in the front door, the coach asked "May I help you?", I replied "Yes---you can teach me SABRE!".

I've talked to a few sabre fencers who have as you say been wheedled into it by a coach, but very few. Given the fact that the majority of coaches seem to subscribe to the "Foil first, for everyone, and preferably always" theory, I suspect ( as long as we're doing hunches

) that there are a lot more foilists who were "pushed that way" than there are sabre fencers. Given the disparity in numbers, that would almost HAVE to be so, statistically...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
But foil is much more athletic, <hr /></blockquote>OK, now you're just being whimsical, admit it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> When a touch goes on and on with fencers actually exchanging right of way and going up and down the strip, you really get a sense of what fencing's about. It makes you shiver.<hr /></blockquote>Or is that "shudder"?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Epee, while it seems more passive and quiet, is also exciting to watch for newbies because they know what's going on. There is no need to understand the cryptic French things the director is saying. <hr /></blockquote>Agreed. ( Grudgingly, heh heh! )

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finally, the sheer number of actions that you can accomplish in epee, and the level of complexity of the game makes it the most interesting weapon in my opinion. When you fence foil, ROW is basically limiting your options, whereas when you fence epee, you have so many things to think about<hr /></blockquote>OTOH, the point-only restriction is also a limitation on complexity, from which sabre suffereth not. Anything you can do with a point in foil or epee you can theoretically do in sabre as well ( toe touches aside ), plus there're all of the edge actions....

Jisahn · 08-08-2002, 07:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
 Nick Evangelista suggested that I had plenty of time to move to epee and that I should learn to fence foil more. <hr /></blockquote>I've read Evangelista's book, "The Art and Science of Fencing". Excellent material. I like to compare it with older literature such as from Nadi.

Peach · 08-08-2002, 08:16 PM

Like Inquartata, I wanted to do sabre very early. My coach amiably surrendered after I had done my penance in foil. He doesn't quite get the appeal (or the rationale) of sabre, being a very good foil and epee coach, but he's willing to believe it's there somewhere.

I don't think any of the weapons is superior; I just know I couldn't bear fencing foil, and epee would drive me completely froth-at-the-mouth bats.

reptile · 08-08-2002, 11:49 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Foil is like watching paint dry with lots of meaningless interruptions. <hr /></blockquote>Paint dry with meaningless interruptions?
This sounds like very abstract art!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Perhaps we could start a poll. Brethren?
<hr /></blockquote>Yea brother, i am a sabre volunteer and this inspite of my country being an epee power (Sydney 2002) with virtualy NO sabre going on any more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Epee, while it seems more passive and quiet, is also exciting to watch for newbies because they know what's going on. <hr /></blockquote>When i was an absolute newby i mostly noticed all the hopping in epee, the passiveness and the painful touches.

Tastes are different and i can agree to veeco that sabre isn't theatrical - it's real. And i like the "pirate aspect" as well

[ 08-09-2002, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: reptile ]

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-09-2002, 06:33 AM

Mike,

1) Its real early and I'm real tired so I'm not sure if my explanation is going to make any sense.

I am going to explain my thoughts on the subject from my perspective at the time and now looking back. When I first started fencing in Feb. of 2000, my main concern was learning how to fence in general. I was worried about keeping my left arm up, my feet at 90 degrees and my hand before my foot on the lunge. Most everyone on this board to one extent or the other is thinking that that is a very antiquated and old style of foil fencing, one that would get me torn up in competition. However, IMO, for epee, this stance and style is very helpful.

A good epeeist isn't going to throw himself at his opponent with a bent arm looking to fool him. He knows that his opponent is going to eat him alive with a perfectly valid counterattack. By June of 2000, I had become interested in epee and was seriosly considering taking up the epee as my primary weapon, it just took a while because I got out of fencing a couple of times. For those of you who read the How do you call this? thread, you will have read Bill Oliver's email to Craig. In it, he writes the following. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> idea behind many of the foil
rules was to encourage correct epee form. Bent-arm attacks aren't what the fore-fathers had in mind, but a counter attack that gets on[e] killed in the process is definately what they were trying to teach beginners to avoid. <hr /></blockquote>Here's my take on his statement. By reading part of that statement, he appears to be referring to the classical style of fencing since he says that bent arm attacks, highly prevalent today, aren't what the fore-fathers had in mind. The first part says that foil, classical foil I say, was suppost to "teach" proper epee form.

Allow me to paraphrase part of the introduction to Fencing with the Epee by Roger Crosnier. This book will not go into the proper stances and footwork because that should have been learnt in Fencing with the Foil. Before one can fence with the epee, they must first learn to fence.

Although many people consider this book to be antiquated as it was written in the 1950's, I don't see how that is possible for the following reasons.

1) The book was written in the era of electric scoring, therefore, all technique and tactics was written for electric bouting.

2) Epee, as it lacks any conventions or rules, cannot be twisted and contorted to find new ways of manipulating the rules. Therefore, while there is a great deal of opinion in foil and sabre fencing, there isn't in epee. Epee is truth. There is no he extended first but he parried and hit, its touch left or touch right. The scoring system doesn't lie and nothing is left to the judge, other than whether or not the fencer hit the floor etc.

3) The book itself goes into detail on all types of technique. Taking of the blade, proper attacks, and stop and time thrusts.

2) My girlfriend only knows what she's seen from me fencing epee maybe 20 times. Howver, she fits the bill of what Vecco was describing. A person uninitiated with fencing in general.

In answer to Philistine's question. I think that when Fencer A moves to epee. He will loose more than he wins, but in time will develope that keen sense which only time will endow to an epeeist. Then he will be on par with the person who fenced epee the whole time. In time, I think that Fencer A would be better. There is another variable to consider. As its been noted by others on this board, there are many fencers who feel instinctively drawn to one weapon or the other. I have a certain knack for epee that I do not have with foil, and certainly not sabre. If either fencer A or B had this, then they would be the better of the two by far. However, if both are equal in everything, then I say in time the answer will be Fencer A.

JEC · 08-09-2002, 07:02 AM

I agree with D'art. Early, fencer B. Later, fencer A. Fencer A would have a larger repertoire of moves and better defense. However, fencer A must practice foil every so often, so not to forget how. You become rusty very quickly.

One actual example. Andras Horayni (a NCF fencer Boulder,CO) had been an outstanding Foil fencer for years (currently 5th in cadet). He pretty much fence foil until recently. He now also currently ranks 11th in epee despite not participating in several competitions.

[ 08-09-2002, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: JEC ]

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-09-2002, 07:10 AM

You're right, JEC, I need to fence foil every once and a while. I keep on bringing my foils and lame' but never want to fence it. I am too busy enjoying myself in epee.

Philistine · 08-09-2002, 07:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
{snip}
In answer to Philistine's question. I think that when Fencer A moves to epee. He will loose more than he wins, but in time will develope that keen sense which only time will endow to an epeeist. Then he will be on par with the person who fenced epee the whole time.<hr /></blockquote>

I don't disagree with this. It seems logical that the longer the time spent fencing epee, versus earlier time spent fencing foil, the difference in "epee ability" will shrink, and at a certain point, will disappear.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In time, I think that Fencer A would be better.
{snip}
However, if both are equal in everything, then I say in time the answer will be Fencer A.
<hr /></blockquote>

Why?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:

I agree with D'art. Early, fencer B. Later, fencer A. Fencer A would have a larger repertoire of moves and better defense. <hr /></blockquote>

But isn't the larger repertoire of moves, by definition, made up of those that are not useful in epee? If they were useful in epee, why wouldn't they be taught in epee?

With regard to defense--wouldn't defense as taught in epee be superior (for epee purposes) than that taught in foil--again, by definition?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
One actual example. Andras Horayni (a NCF fencer Boulder,CO) had been an outstanding Foil fencer for years (currently 5th in cadet). He pretty much fence foil until recently. He now also currently ranks 11th in epee despite not participating in several competitions.
<hr /></blockquote>

Don't you think it likely that he would be ranked higher than 11th if he had spent all his time with epee?

--Philistine

[ 08-09-2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Philistine ]

JEC · 08-09-2002, 07:26 AM

Look at the results in the competitions that he participated.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-09-2002, 07:51 AM

Philistine,

Although it would be crazy to do a foil coupe' in epee, could not that move be applied in epee in some fashoin or another? Its not necessarily the move itself, but the ability to apply and correct the move to make it apply in epee.

Also, just because B has spent more time in epee doesn't mean he's learned as much as A. A has been exposed to more since he has a solid background in foil to back him up in foil. In foil, one's defense must be solid since a counterattack isn't valid in foil. The foilist turned epeeist will have that instictive timing ingrained into himself that will allow him to apply his parrys with greater knowledge and precision than fencer B. A has more control of his actions because he's been fencing in an environment where priority of attack dictates much of his actions. Although there is no right of way in epee, that doesn't mean that the concept should not be observed. Right of way is what it is as a baseline to teach a fencer when it is safe to attack, and when its time to defend. Would I begin an attack at the moment when my life is in perril? No, I will defend myself and then launch my attack.

epeemike81 · 08-09-2002, 08:36 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:
I agree with D'art. Early, fencer B. Later, fencer A. Fencer A would have a larger repertoire of moves and better defense.<hr /></blockquote>Why?

I have given specific examples as to the bad habits picked up by starting in foil first. bad habits, I might add, which are NOT easy to break.

what makes you think that you develop a "larger repertoire" of moves starting with foil??

speaking from personal experience, people who switch from foil to epee do, as you say, struggle at the beginning.... the difference is, I have not seen them be better than pure epeeists in the long run.

I disagree with the larger repertoire argument because the pure and simple fact is that if something is helpful and works well in epee, an epeeist will pick it up, and if it doesn't work (like, say, releasing your parries) then why would you want to add it to your repetoire??

-m

achilleus · 08-09-2002, 08:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
In answer to Philistine's question. I think that when Fencer A moves to epee. He will loose more than he wins, but in time will develope that keen sense which only time will endow to an epeeist. Then he will be on par with the person who fenced epee the whole time. In time, I think that Fencer A would be better. There is another variable to consider. As its been noted by others on this board, there are many fencers who feel instinctively drawn to one weapon or the other. I have a certain knack for epee that I do not have with foil, and certainly not sabre. If either fencer A or B had this, then they would be the better of the two by far. However, if both are equal in everything, then I say in time the answer will be Fencer A.<hr /></blockquote>A good coach will teach fencer B how to fence. The coach will teach a wide variety of moves, proper footwork, and tactics regardless of the weapon they use.

Soren Thompson has been doing epee as far back as I can remember (I can remember age 12). As a junior he also competed in foil, with only epee lessons, and did very well.

Personally, I did one day of foil, then started training in epee with a pistol grip. I've done well, but then again I had competent coaches who stressed proper technique and tactics.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-09-2002, 08:45 AM

A thinking and intelligent fencer, no matter what weapon he starts with, will learn to correct habits which do not work well in a different weapon. Sure, just last Tuesday I lost at least 2 or 3 touches because I released my parry. However, I've only started adding a parry to quarte to my repatoire in epee. Prior to that, I simply changed distance or didn't riposte. In time, I will learn to hold that blade out.

When I first started fencing foil. My instructor insisted that in foil I do not release my parries. If I hadn't been lazy on that, I wouldn't have the problem I do now. My point is that there are coaches who teach their foilists to look the blade out, something that if properly done, will translate beautifully in epee.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-09-2002, 08:47 AM

Remember that everybody has different experiences and therefore different perspectives. I fence in an environment in which I am not sure when my next lesson is going to be

epeemike81 · 08-09-2002, 08:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
In foil, one's defense must be solid since a counterattack isn't valid in foil. The foilist turned epeeist will have that instictive timing ingrained into himself that will allow him to apply his parrys with greater knowledge and precision than fencer B.<hr /></blockquote>Think about that statement.... since a counterattack (or in this case a remise of an attack) IS valid in epee, the epeeist will have BETTER defense. the foilist merely taps the blade, takes ROW and doesn't care if he gets hit while riposting. the epeeist holds the blade, ripostes, and does NOT get hit. I understand that you are arguing that epeeists would merely counterattack instead of parrying.... my response to that is that first of all, ANY decent epeeist will have both parrys AND counters in his game. Second of all, if a counter can GET a single light against this particular attack, an epeeist SHOULD counter, whereas fencer A, trained in foil, will automatically parry where he doesn't need to and is therefore more susceptible to feints.

surprise, surprise... epee teaches better epee defense than foil.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />A has more control of his actions because he's been fencing in an environment where priority of attack dictates much of his actions. Although there is no right of way in epee, that doesn't mean that the concept should not be observed. Right of way is what it is as a baseline to teach a fencer when it is safe to attack, and when its time to defend. Would I begin an attack at the moment when my life is in perril? No, I will defend myself and then launch my attack.<hr /></blockquote>First of all, in my experience, foilists do not put priority on defense. The majority go out and attack.

Secondly, why would ROW make you MORE in control of your actions??? it teaches automatic responses. "when somebody attacks in four, you parry four." Epeeists KNOW that sometimes you parry, sometimes you counter. I love fencing foil switchovers, because they are like pavlovian dogs. I attack in four, they go for my blade, I deceive and hit. Epeeists, on the other hand, would laugh at my stupid attempt to hit their back shoulder and counter attack and hit me. Foilists are LESS in control of their actions due to their training that a parry is the only response to an attack.

-m