why is your primary weapon superior to the other two?

**Inquartata** · 08-06-2002 11:52 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:
[QBNadi was never infallible, but to not recognize his genius with a blade is unwise. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Of course. But it does not follow that a pronouncement like "It is only possible to master the sabre after first mastering foil and epee" is true for anyone other than Nadi...

**veeco** · 08-07-2002 12:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mo:

Why would a good sabrist ever even want to pick up a foil??

Going to another weapon after saber is just unnatural!!<hr /></blockquote>Let's see, why would a good sabreur ever want to pick up a foil?

1- Because they do some armory work and have to pick it up before fixing it

2- Because they saw the light, realized how boring their weapon was to watch for an uneducated audience and decided to try foil which is much cooler to watch than saber (This is a poor attempt to stay on topic).

The reason why going to another weapon after sabre is unnatural is because being a sabreur itself makes you an unnatural person. So as a side effect you cannot stand superior weapons and have to dwell into the darkness of sabre for eternity.

**epeemike81** · 08-07-2002 07:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darius:
Feel any way you want, but you're plain wrong. You can learn to fence well starting with any weapon....

Foil skills translate well: the point control necessary to win in epee, and the right-of-way knowledge necessary to win in sabre.

darius<hr /></blockquote>First of all, Darius, read the thread about Olympic fencers. Just because that is your opinion doesn't mean that mine is automatically wrong. An opinion is based upon observations and perspective, not fact. Two people can look at the same thing and come up with two opposite conclusions.

Also, it looks to me that you answered the question of why foil is taught first in your post saying that it shouldn't or does not necessarily have to.<hr /></blockquote>By starting beginners in foil, you do get the few advantages that darius has mentioned. however, if you let them stay in foil and "master" foil, as Nadi suggests, they will develop bad habits that will hurt them in epee (the foil hitch, releasing their parries, the tendency to ALWAYS parry instead of stophit, etc.). They would also pick up bad habits in both foil and epee that would hurt their sabre. Thus, I have to say that I think that Nadi is full of it when it comes to this issue.

My club starts everybody in foil for one simple reason: we have an abundance of dry foils. we try to specialize them as quickly as possible, but all of the coaches and experienced fencers agree that it would be better if we could start them immediately in their weapon of choice, rather than foil.

-m

**epeemike81** · 08-07-2002 07:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
2- Because they saw the light, realized how boring their weapon was to watch for an uneducated audience and decided to try foil which is much cooler to watch than saber.<hr /></blockquote>huh?

Though I love epee, I will agree with you that it is easier for the uninitiated to enjoy foil or sabre, as epee LOOKS boring. however, I don't know how you can say it is boring for the uneducated audience to watch sabre! it is the MOST theatrical and exciting of the weapons!

-m

**Peach** · 08-07-2002 08:45 AM

I agree. I love watching good sabre. It's so intense and dramatic.

**counter riposte** · 08-07-2002 02:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
The reason why going to another weapon after sabre is unnatural is because being a sabreur itself makes you an unnatural person. So as a side effect you cannot stand superior weapons and have to dwell into the darkness of sabre for eternity.<hr /></blockquote>Welcome to the darkside, in this corner a sabreur, in the opposing corner, a foilist.

Who will win? (Assuming all ROW's are in place, and targets the same for both weapons).

Foil is for those who think. Thinking in battle will get you killed. Sabre is for those who are out to kill people. (It is afterall, a military weapon, not that of a gentleman). Therefore we don't think, we act. Given, unintelligently, but we act. (Which is why it is funner.)

Mo · 08-07-2002 06:23 PM

The reason why going to another weapon after sabre is unnatural is because being a sabreur itself makes you an unnatural person. So as a side effect you cannot stand superior weapons and have to dwell into the darkness of sabre for eternity.

Sure Veeco, stick to your delusions, :::hands Vee his medications::::

As far as sabruers not having to think??? Counter what you talking about??
I saw some footage that had some really good female saber fencer's faces during fencing. You can see the focus and intensity and obvious THINKING going on. What makes a good saber fencer is BRAINS. Being smart, figuring things out quickly and being able to do what needs to be done, gets the point. If you cannot process quickly or "think" during bouts, all you are doing is wacking the crap out of each other.
Remember how fencing is sometimes refered to as Physical Chess?? It is especially true in saber.
In the end the best sabrists will be the brilliant sabrists.

**Inquartata** · 08-07-2002 07:06 PM

Methinks we have run aground on the reef of the distiction between "thinking" and "deliberation"..

Of course there is thinking in sabre. It is just done faster and a bit more actively than in foil. And therefore it cannot be quite as labyrinthine as foil cogitation seems to get---there is simply no time to plan "ok, he's inviting in four, so I'll feint four with an advance, one-two in second intention and if all goes as planned then I'll..." By the time you get to "ok, he's---" you're hit...

Which does indeed make foil more "exciting" to watch...if your idea of excitement is a cricket match on a hot afternoon, or an untimed chess game. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**Jisahn** · 08-07-2002 07:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mo:
[b]Why would a good sabrist ever even want to pick up a foil??<hr /></blockquote>I don't know ... so that he/she won't be an arrogant, narrow-minded, and rude elitist who evidently forgets the gentlemanly conduct among fencers of all weapons and origin?

Just a thought.

**Jisahn** · 08-07-2002 08:02 PM

[quote]I challenge you to find a single sentence where he clearly says that someone is fundamentally better than him.[quote]

I never said he wasn't arrogant. I said he gave credit to other fencing masters

(I refer you to the first chapter in 'On Fencing').

Speaking of arrogance; it takes guts to talk trash about a Maestro who's been dead for about 40 years. Kudos... And maybe Ali wasn't a great boxer of his time ... he just got lucky.

I quote Nadi once, and all of a sudden, some of you take up arms. And as for some of you sabrists ... get off your high horses! I never once said that any weapon was inferior to another.

**Inquartata** · 08-07-2002 08:13 PM

Heh, but sabre is a cavalry weapon! If we get off our high horses, we'll be ( shudder ) infantrymen... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**achilleus** · 08-07-2002 09:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:
[quote]I challenge you to find a single sentence where he clearly says that someone is fundamentally better than him.[quote]

I never said he wasn't arrogant. I said he gave credit to other fencing masters

(I refer you to the first chapter in 'On Fencing').

Speaking of arrogance; it takes guts to talk trash about a Maestro who's been dead for about 40 years. Kudos... And maybe Ali wasn't a great boxer of his time ... he just got lucky.

I quote Nadi once, and all of a sudden, some of you take up arms. And as for some of you sabrists ... get off your high horses! I never once said that any weapon was inferior to another.<hr /></blockquote>No one talked badly of Nadi's fencing ability, just his poor attitude. If he lost, he claimed he was cheated, and he quit competition because he got too tired to fence and wouldn't dream of working to increase his endurance. He disparages everyone who didn't think he was god's gift to fencing, and spoke highly of everyone who thought he was without parallel.

I think everyone can agree that, at the time, Nadi was a great fencer, but time waits for no one. The sport has changed making many of Nadi's opinions on fencing obselete.

Much has changed in fencing since Nadi was around, and the weapons have become very speacialized. No longer does mastering foil help your epee or sabre. ROW interpretations in foil and sabre differ so much, that it is difficult to switch between the two. And ROW in foil is interpreted so loosely, that a great foilist has trouble will get taken apart by a great epeeist.

Really, starting in a weapon besides foil isn't a hinderance, if competitive success is the goal, and a competent coach is on hand.

**Saber-Psycho** · 08-08-2002 12:16 AM

I don't know ... so that he/she won't be an arrogant, narrow-minded, and rude elitist who evidently forgets the gentlemanly conduct among fencers of all weapons and origin? \

Wooooo hoooooo look at who cannot recognize fun banter and tongue in cheek!!! Get some humor dear and as far as gentlemanly conduct goes, hmmm that is a rare find in fencing.
Don't take yourself so seriously, have some fun, it is only fencing.

**John Nguyen** · 08-08-2002 12:19 AM

He doesn't acknowledge anyone? Thats rather rude. I guess he forgot my name

But seriously, who were the guys you are mentioning? Where are you finding books with this stuff too, cause i'd be VERY interested in delving into other theories.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-08-2002 11:08 AM

Sorry, I should have been in the middle of this discussion, but my ISP went down till just earlier today. Also, with school coming back up, I've been too busy anyway to type any messages.

I'll come back to this thread later today.

**veeco** · 08-08-2002 11:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:

I never said he wasn't arrogant. I said he gave credit to other fencing masters

(I refer you to the first chapter in 'On Fencing').

Speaking of arrogance; it takes guts to talk trash about a Maestro who's been dead for about 40 years. Kudos... And maybe Ali wasn't a great boxer of his time ... he just got lucky.

I quote Nadi once, and all of a sudden, some of you take up arms.<hr /></blockquote>I don't know enough about Ali to say whether he was a great boxer of his time.

However, the reason why I don't like to say anything good about Nadi is that I read both his books. While I found them highly enjoyable, I don't understand why he is seen as God's gift to fencing. Sure, he was good. I'm not sure he was that good, because he did not really compete. He did a couple exhibitions here and there, making a boatload of cash whether he lost or won, and then went on for some time to spend all the money he had won.
Once he realized that this lifestyle was not taking him anywhere, he moved to the US, and there he achieve the fame we all know by opening his salle and taking advantage of the fact that fencing was still a relatively new sport in the US. He basically had the first mover's advantage.

There are plenty of more interesting role models than Nadi, in my opinion.

**veeco** · 08-08-2002 11:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
2- Because they saw the light, realized how boring their weapon was to watch for an uneducated audience and decided to try foil which is much cooler to watch than saber.<hr /></blockquote>huh?

Though I love epee, I will agree with you that it is easier for the uninitiated to enjoy foil or sabre, as epee LOOKS boring. however, I don't know how you can say it is boring for the uneducated audience to watch sabre! it is the MOST theatrical and exciting of the weapons!

-m<hr /></blockquote>Sabre is not theatrical. It's boring to watch. You say it's exciting because you know fencing. But I don't know of anyone who's new to the sport who told me right of the bat that they like to watch sabre. They just said that it was just like watching crash tests. You find it amusing first, but after a while it becomes repetitive. If you will, you can see sabre like a sudden adrenaline rush you get when you watch a scary movie for the first time. But the next time you watch it, it's boring because you know what's going to happen. And I have been watching high level sabre bouts for a long time, trust me.

In fact, I would argue that 85% of the sabre fencers that exist nowadays have chosen sabre not because they wanted to do it, but because they were somehow pushed towards it in one way or another (they were fencing in a sabre only club, or the first coach they talked to was a sabre coach). Of course, I could be wrong, but I have a hunch here.

Once you choose to fence sabre, I'm sure it's fun to fence though. I actually fence sabre on occasions.

But foil is much more athletic, there is an actual fencing conversation going on. When a touch goes on and on with fencers actually exchanging right of way and going up and down the strip, you really get a sense of what fencing's about. It makes you shiver.

Epee, while it seems more passive and quiet, is also exciting to watch for newbies because they know what's going on. There is no need to understand the cryptic French things the director is saying. Finally, the sheer number of actions that you can accomplish in epee, and the level of complexity of the game makes it the most interesting weapon in my opinion. When you fence foil, ROW is basically limiting your options, whereas when you fence epee, you have so many things to think about, it's almost like your brain is overloaded by all these feelings and emotions the first time you see it.

Please remember that I am talking about a newbie's perspective there... When you've been immersed in fencing for a while, you're not the same person and your personality changes so much that you cannot apply what I've said here.

**epeemike81** · 08-08-2002 11:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
But foil is much more athletic, there is an actual fencing conversation going on. When a touch goes on and on with fencers actually exchanging right of way and going up and down the strip, you really get a sense of what fencing's about. It makes you shiver.<hr /></blockquote>"fencers actually exchanging ROW" explains why you think foil is more exciting to other fencers (though you are watching some pretty bad sabre if there isn't an exchange of ROW). to the UNinitiated, however, all of those exchanges are meaningless.... that is why all the uninitiated I've ever talked to at competitions enjoy watching sabre more.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Epee, while it seems more passive and quiet, is also exciting to watch for newbies because they know what's going on. There is no need to understand the cryptic French things the director is saying.<hr /></blockquote>agreed
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finally, the sheer number of actions that you can accomplish in epee, and the level of complexity of the game makes it the most interesting weapon in my opinion. When you fence foil, ROW is basically limiting your options, whereas when you fence epee, you have so many things to think about<hr /></blockquote>agreed
<blockquote>quote:<hr />it's almost like your brain is overloaded by all these feelings and emotions the first time you see it.<hr /></blockquote>BS! the FIRST time you see it, as an uninitiated member of the public, you do not see the nuances. you see two guys bouncing around, and occasionally taking pot shots. eventually, one of 'em "gets lucky" and scores on one of those pot shots.

newbies specifically do NOT appreciate the vast amounts of time in epee that people aren't getting hit.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please remember that I am talking about a newbie's perspective there...<hr /></blockquote>Funny, I was about to tell you the same thing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />When you've been immersed in fencing for a while, you're not the same person<hr /></blockquote>and THEN I can understand how you might find the other two more enjoyable to watch than sabre.

I invite any others to offer their opinions on this subject.

-m

[ 08-08-2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: epeemike81 ]

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-08-2002 11:55 AM

My girlfriend, who only watches me, remarked that sabre looked very brutal and that we looked like a couple of pirates.

Now..... back to my original discussion with Darius. I don't think that you should master foil before moving on to epee. I forget who, but someone pointed up some negative effects of that, like letting go of the blade in a parry to quarte. I myself still suffer that problem from time to time.

My thought is that you should learn to fence with the foil, then decide whether you'd like to specialize in the weapon or move on to another weapon. I myself fenced foil for about a year and a half before seriously considering moving over to epee, July of 2001. I didn't because Nick Evangelista suggested that I had plenty of time to move to epee and that I should learn to fence foil more. My coach agreed and suggested giving foil more time. I put fencing down in September of 2001 and didn't start up again until February 2002. Since then, I've been mostly epee. Did I master the foil? Not by any means. However, do I know how to fence? Yes, by all means.

I understand the terminology of fencing. I understand the concept of distance and am able to apply it to any weapon. Foil taught me many things about fencing that I've used to make my transition to epee all the more easier.

I've watched very little sabre, so I can't comment on whether or not it looks fun. Considering the poor lighting and limited camera angles of all the tapes of top level foil, I find it boring. Epee on the other hand is a blast. I love Vecco's comments on what makes epee so great. You said it as well as I could have.

**epeemike81** · 08-08-2002 12:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
My girlfriend, who only watches me, remarked that sabre looked very brutal and that we looked like a couple of pirates.

Now..... back to my original discussion with Darius. I don't think that you should master foil before moving on to epee. I forget who, but someone pointed up some negative effects of that, like letting go of the blade in a parry to quarte. I myself still suffer that problem from time to time.

My thought is that you should learn to fence with the foil, then decide whether you'd like to specialize in the weapon or move on to another weapon. I myself fenced foil for about a year and a half before seriously considering moving over to epee, July of 2001. I didn't because Nick Evangelista suggested that I had plenty of time to move to epee and that I should learn to fence foil more. My coach agreed and suggested giving foil more time. I put fencing down in September of 2001 and didn't start up again until February 2002. Since then, I've been mostly epee. Did I master the foil? Not by any means. However, do I know how to fence? Yes, by all means.

I understand the terminology of fencing. I understand the concept of distance and am able to apply it to any weapon. Foil taught me many things about fencing that I've used to make my transition to epee all the more easier.

I've watched very little sabre, so I can't comment on whether or not it looks fun. Considering the poor lighting and limited camera angles of all the tapes of top level foil, I find it boring. Epee on the other hand is a blast. I love Vecco's comments on what makes epee so great. You said it as well as I could have.<hr /></blockquote>a couple of questions:
1) I know that you don't advocate MASTERING foil. but, do you think it is a good idea for everybody to START with foil? why or why not?

2) I also agree that epee is a blast, and agree with Veeco's reasoning as to WHY it is a blast. however, can your girlfriend see those nuances?

-m

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