allstar gloves??

[Gav]

Although I've never left a 'red hand'on my kit I have inadvertantly dyed it when washing with the glove accidentally mixed in. New gloves do tend to leave red dye all over my hand. I use Allstar gloves and I like them. The only problem I have is that, at present, they don't seem to last very long. In my case they always go on the same place - the palm - the leather appears to dissolve. I use them because they are comfortable and give good grip.

[Pauli]

Originally Posted by Gav

The only problem I have is that, at present, they don't seem to last very long. In my case they always go on the same place - the palm - the leather appears to dissolve.

Could it be that your palm-sweat is poisonous? What do you tend to drink before you start fencing? Chemical reaction the glove doesn't withstand?

[Gav]

Well I do occasionally wonder if my sweat is acidic. The by products of an acidic-sweat leather interaction could explain the smell...

[Tiptop]

Originally Posted by Gav

Well I do occasionally wonder if my sweat is acidic. The by products of an acidic-sweat leather interaction could explain the smell...

For the glove for example, the CE regulation forbidden using of chromium very bad for skin.Most of Pakistan gloves use them in their manufacturing unless they get the CE marking .

[shango]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

Neither of the Alstar or Uhlmann Gloves are made to comply with Cen performance level 2. Also if you sweat with the Alstar glove your hand/jacket will be dyed red and with the Uhlmann glove blue.

Leon Paul G126 gloves are made to comply with the higher European Cen level 2 (we are in the process of having a Cen certification). In order to pass this standard one of the requirements is to have a 350 Newton strength material in the cuff and back of the hand. In the back of the hand inbetween the layers of leather (artificial washable) is 350 stretch material. Some fencers find this makes the gloves feel a little stiff but they losens up after a few nights fencing. If you get hit on the back of the hand or fingers especially fencers pommeling try the G128 which has energy absorbent foam in the back of the hand and fingers. Barry Paul

I sincerely doubt this. I have an Allstar glove, and the sticky red part is just rubber. No color bleeds, althought of course, after time, some of the rubber is worn down.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by shango

I sincerely doubt this. I have an Allstar glove, and the sticky red part is just rubber. No color bleeds, althought of course, after time, some of the rubber is worn down.

I think he's saying the colored fabric, not the sticky part, is what makes teh color bleed.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Nusy

So, Allstar/Uhlmann ones are totally the same fit as PBT, but (at least here) are way more expensive.

My experience is different. I have been unhappy with Allstar/Uhlmann gloves because the fingers were so overlarge that they bunched up and annoyed me. The last two gloves I have bought have both been PBT and the fit of the fingers has been much snugger. Haven't tried Leon Paul.

[Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by fencinman89

The bibs itself are different materials. For a mask to be certified FIE, the 3 control masks that are taken and tested must pass a 25k punch test.
-Tre'

No the 25K puch test is not a requirement to pass a Cen performance level.

[Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by WhipLash

thanks for the correction, barry. eh...cen level 2 for gloves mean 350N?

so am i right to say that the mesh for both level 1 and 2 masks will resist 12kg and the difference is in the bib?

No. Cen Level 1 and Cen level 2 performance criteria are not checked with a 12 kg test probe

At slow speed level 1 resist 600 N and level 2 1000 N at impact testing level 1 is 5.5 Joules and level 2 is 8.5 Joules > Barry Paul

[CvilleFencer]

I have used Uhlmann and Allstar gloves for a while. I have had a couple of the Allstar gloves bleed if I washed them on hot, but it seems to be fairly hit or miss. I guess if they were made on a Friday they might bleed, but not the rest of the week! One thing I have noticed is that of late they seem to be wearing quicker. Now it may just be that my level of fencing has evolved and I am using the glove "harder" somehow, but I am noticing a drop in the life and quality. They seem to go in the palm and at the stitching in the web of the thumb after about 4-6 months, which would not be so bad, if I did not have old Allstar and Uhlmann gloves that are several years old in the loaner gear of our club (after the palm gets slick I retire them, but lately they fall apart before that happens). Since Uhlmann/Allstar is farming out so much of their stuff to the Far East and South Africa lately I wonder if they have changed the maker or the material supplier for thier gloves lately.

The LP gloves with the resistant foam are pretty spiffy. I had a saber with the built in cuff and it was the best of that design that I have seen. Of course I remembered that I hate saber after getting it and got rid of it. I have tried the LP impact absorbing foam gloves for foil/epee and while they were very good quality they did not fit my hand very well, mainly in the thumb. I also wish LP made a "sticky" glove, but they make a "sticky" grip which lasts much longer than a "sticky" glove and I think they consider the "sticky" gloves to be sort of a fad. The "sticky" grips are much better, if you fence with a Vis or Belgian, but for the other 30% of us the Uhlmann/Allstar "sticky" gloves, the PBT version (which I do not care for at all) and the Duelist "spider man" gloves (which I can get from an overseas vendor in bulk for $8 so there is no way I would pay what they ask for them!) are what we are left with.

Part of my problem is that I like a very close fit. The best all around gloves I ever found were Air Force pilots gloves. They fit, well, like a glove and have a long snug cuff. I may just get a set of these and split, stitch and velcro the seems on the cuff and make my own. Not much protection, but they should offer a great feel. I may take a look at some of the under armour gloves also and just stitch my own cuff out of a nice, slick material (I am an epee fencer). If it works out well I will post my design and source parts for anyone who is interested.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I hate saber .

Well, who's going to listen to such an obvious lunatic?

[lindajdunn]

I've never had my hand died red or blue but on those occasions where I wear a Handeze under the glove, that has certainly picked up some red dye. This does wash out.

[CvilleFencer]

Okay, this has gotten me thinking, and a little annoyed. Okay, fencing gloves fairly simple things in the world of gloves. They are a synthetic or natural leather and a cloth cuff. A decent one runs you about $50. That is really rather bull****. Not that manufacturers don't need to have high profit margins on some products to offset tooling cost on niche items and so forth. I understand all that. My beef is how simple the technology is on these things.

As a counter point I am going to use some tactical gloves designed for law enforcement. Are there a lot more cops in the world than fencers? Sure, but very few of them wear/use tactical gloves and even fewer were feature heavy tactical gloves like the ones I am going to talk about here.

For comparison I offer two tactical gloves that are full length cuff models, similar in size to a fencing glove. The first is the Hellstorm Fury Tactical Glove. This thing is pretty much top of the line in tactical gloves. It offers a special palm liner to prevent bunching, an enhanced grip surface on the palm and fingers for proper weapon control and good feel while searching/frisking, it has a padded back hand section for busting out windows and absorbing hits during riot call ups and crowd control, is kevlar lined and reinforced on the gauntlet (you can literally block edged weapon strikes with the forearms and grab weapons by the blade to disarm your assailant with much risk), are heat resistant to 800 degrees and have an elasticized wrist and gauntlet for a great fit. How much do they cost? About the same as a top line glove from LP, Uhlmann/Allstar or Duelist. You can check them out here

Another example is the Hatch Operator Glove. This is another full sized tactical glove similar in size to a fencing glove. I will just list its features instead of righting them out as I have never actually used them before:

Elasticized wrist and gauntlet keeps out foreign objects and prevents snagging (much snugger fi than a lot of fencing cuffs)
Kevlar® and leather construction, cut-resistant protection beyond 800° F
Armor-Tan™ treated goatskin leather palms with DRAGON print etching (this is similar to the "sticky" material used, but much more durable)
Secondary "ergo-cut" layer in palm to prevent bunching
Foam padded heel cushions firearm recoil
Posi-Grip™ non-skid material in cradle provides confident grip
Cut-Ring™ stitching on index finger

This one also has a padded back hand area for bashing. How much does it cost? About $30 dollars. Less if you order it with a copy of your Mil ID or Department letterhead. Check it out here

While there are a lot more cops out there than fencers, I would bet money that for most of us there are a lot more fencers that their are active swat officers using full on tactical gloves as a lot of swat members just use pilots gloves, shooters gloves or frisking/patrol gloves.

All of tactical gloves have very complex stitching and lots of different name brand materials sourced from big companies like Dupont built into them and the glove makers still turn a profit. And guess what? A lot of them only sell gloves so I don't buy arguments like it is to expensive to make/design a great fencing glove with lots of features. I also don't buy that there is no market for it. The Uhlmann/Allstar "sticky" gloves are such a hot item because they incorporate things that have been available for Tactical gloves for a very long time. The "sticky" gloves and the spiffy foam used in some LP gloves are the only real innovation in this kit, it seems to me, in about forever.

So why are fencing gloves so expensive and offer so little? I dunno. Part of it is profit margin as I mentioned earlier I am sure. However a fencing company could partner with Hatch, Hellstorm or Michael’s Gloves similar to what LP did with Hi Tec to modify a tac glove for a whole new market. There would be profit, the glove maker would love to have access to an increase in customer base, and the R&D cost and design would be minimal as they could simply drop the Nomax (fire resistant) aspect of the glove, add a Velcro split in the gauntlet and have the best damn fencing gloves around.

As the President of the… um well, nothing really important, but as a fencer and a club/division officer I call on a fencing manufacturer to offer a soundly made, lightweight fencing glove, incorporating at least four of the following legacy goals:

*Moisture/heat management system such as wicking/breathing fabric similar to Under Armor (who also
make gloves)
*Anti-microbial materials for odor management that can survive machine washing.
*Enhanced grip surface with reinforcement of the common wear points.
*Light weight synthetic materials to offer machine washing, improved lifespan
and greater flexibility/feel.
*Double or quad lock stitching with nylon or Kevlar thread for super long life.
*A full stretch cuff with a “grippy” material on the inside of the cuff to keep
the jacket in place.
*A stretch or form fitting material in the fingers and thumb web for a truly
close fit.
*contoured hand molding/modeling for how the glove will actually be used. In
other words design the glove to fit the hand as if it were holding a weapon,
not flat and outstretched.

And if these fencing manufacturers will not head our call, does anyone have a buddy at Hatch, Hellstorm, Blackhawk, Michael’s, etc, that they could put me in contact with…

[oso97]

Looks like the gauntlet has been tossed . Hrmm, I think I saw an advertisement for a gun show near here in the near future. I'll bet that there is some retailer there that carries these or something similar. I'm going to check it out.

[CvilleFencer]

Be careful buying tac gear or equipment at gun shows and the like. I know a lot of people who have gotten burned with look alikes that simply are no where near the performance level of the real thinkg. It helps to only buy from the larger dealers who have a good rep at these shows. You might not get as sweet a deal, but it is more likely to be the actual gear and not a baseball glove with a cuff sewn on and put in a Hellstorm look-a-like box straight from China. In you general area the only law enforcement supply store I know of is C&G supply at 10354 Miller Rd. in Dallas. There are probably others as well. If you don't find anything at the show that looks good check out your local LEW supplier. Most of the ones I have dealt with will order something they don't have in stock for you to take a look at but if you don't like/want it they just put it into stock so you are not obligated to buy. Anyway, let me know what you think.

[Inquartata]

Other possible factors: name cachet and foreign manufacture ( exchange rate inflation ).

You are right, though, there seems to be a pretty hefty profit margin built in. I can pick up a PAIR of gloves for rapier fencing at any big SCA event for $20 or less, and apart from being black they're just leather fencing gloves...

[great bowyer]

i was able to get my uhlmann glove with the rubber stuff on the palm for a bout $25 from germany beore the cost of a euro increased. so this makes me think it is not the company, but rather the vendor that is getting the profit. even with the rising value of the euro, it is still cheaper to get equipment from germany than from any vendor in the us.

[CvilleFencer]

In general I agree with you on that. I try to save up my Uhlmann/Allstar orders to about twice a year as the savings on a large amount of gear more than makes up for the large shipping cost and having to wait a couple of weeks for it to arrive. However in my experience with the current Euro/Dollar rate it is not cost effective to order most things straight from Germany if you order is under a few hundred dollars.

So yes, the vendor markup plays a large part of it, but I appreciate being able to buy gear from a US vendor, deal with English speaking customer service and have my kit in a few days as opposed to a few weeks. For those things I am willing to pay a certain premium (although some vendors charge more than even I am willing to allow. PBT USA being a good example...). My main point is that even at 25-30 dollars, in other sports or applications you can get something much more high tech, functional, safer, better fitting, etc than a couple of pieces of fake dead cow stitched together with cotton thread. If they bother to put on flecks of grippy stuff similar to what you would find on $2 dollar gardening gloves that wears away after a few months we consider it a great improvement.

It seems to me the fencing industry suffers from both a strong bend of traditionalism and a lack of competition. LP and to a lesser degree Zivkovic seem to be the only companies really striving to innovate new products and incorporate modern materials into fencing. The problem with that I think is that LP is at a very Premium price point and Zivkovic is focused on certain niche items (grips and guards). If a company at a more moderate price point came out with innovative gear incorporating the features I mention I feel it would force the other companies to follow suite and offer similar products or, even better, to start an "arms race" to bring new an innovative ideas, material and products to market.

As an example I give you both the “sticky” glove from Uhlmann/Allstar and the “Titanium” guards from Vniti. They were moderate common sense improvements over existing designs (“Lets make a glove that does not let the weapon slip out of you hand when you sweat” and “Lets make a guard that does not crumple like tin foil on a hard hit and that does not weigh more than the blade it is mounted on”). After their successful release of these items they are now everyday with most of the big vendors and even a few Chinese makers producing similar. I think most of LP’s gear does not spark such a similar revolution because of their price point (oh my god expensive compared to even other quality brands) and that they do not have a large presence outside of the UK. Those of us willing to pay “Bentley” money for our sedans drive Bentleys, not Prius even though it is a much more innovative vehicle. But now that the Prius is out there at a main stream price point even Kia is working on bringing a hybrid to market! I think the same will hold true for Fencing as it is less an industry phenomenon than it is a general market phenomenon. Maybe not the best example, but it is the only one I can come up with. You could draw a similar example to Under Armor’s revolutionaly line of clothing and all the imitators out there now.

Right now most manufacturers are not motivated to produce innovation because we put up with and keep buying the outdated, less effective offerings they currently have on the market either for the "support the sport" moral reasons that have been mentioned in this and other threads or because we don't know about other options. I however do not think most manufacturers approach the business of selling goods with such a romanticzed notion of "supporting the sport". They are in business to make money. They will not change or evolve the way we do business unless they are forced to do so. To them it is just good business to keep business as usual and sell the same tired old thing as long as there is a market for it. In other words it is up to us, the consumers to force the change.

[fencinman89]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

No the 25K puch test is not a requirement to pass a Cen performance level.

hmm.... That is what Dan told us at the armorers college maybe I misheard him or the rule has changed.
-Tre'

[ra2000a]

I have used my allstar glove for 2 years .. and i fence quite a lot. and i just recently found a small hole in it. so its durable