Are you a "rating" hound?

[sabreman]

>>
However, I think we all know even MORE fencers who have somehow acheived an "A" rating, yet can barely win two bouts in the first round of an Division I NAC.
<<

I know when I fenced sabre at the Senior NAC level this would never happen. I stopped in 1997. I was the last nationally ranked male sabre fencer from Capitol Division and I only had a B rating after fencing 20 plus years at the time. Outside of NYC and KC only a couple of As going around (Tom S. and Adam S.). You had to make a top 8 at NAC to get one. I made a couple of top 8s in Canadian circuts and got zip for it (this was when JP and JM Banos were still fencing). Now I can see it is easier to get a A because of mixed sabre tournaments and such. Also much easier to get an A rating in epee. In the Capitol division there are 40 - 50 - 60 + year olds that have them. It's a joke.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by sabreman

I know when I fenced sabre at the Senior NAC level this would never happen. I stopped in 1997. I was the last nationally ranked male sabre fencer from Capitol Division and I only had a B rating after fencing 20 plus years at the time. Outside of NYC and KC only a couple of As going around (Tom S. and Adam S.). You had to make a top 8 at NAC to get one. I made a couple of top 8s in Canadian circuts and got zip for it (this was when JP and JM Banos were still fencing). Now I can see it is easier to get a A because of mixed sabre tournaments and such. Also much easier to get an A rating in epee. In the Capitol division there are 40 - 50 - 60 + year olds that have them. It's a joke.

A joke? I'd argue that it was a joke 10 years ago. What is the point of an having an "A" rating when everyone who has one is on the senior points list anyway? Nowadays, As are reasonably common, but there is a level above an A ranking, and that is the senior points list. A ratings are more useful now than they were ten years ago, even if they are easier to get.

[sabreman]

>>What is the point of an having an "A" rating when everyone who has one is on the senior points list anyway?
>>
This still is not the case in sabre.

I am in agreement regarding the national points being the true yard stick. What I am saying is that the A rating doesn't hold as much water anymore especially in epee where it is far easier to earn a A. I was just using my division as an example.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

honestly, I think their should be an A+ level for people on the national points list, and it goes away once you're off the points list.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

honestly, I think their should be an A+ level for people on the national points list, and it goes away once you're off the points list.

There is. It's called being on the national points list. Goes away once your points do.

Generally not used at local levels (and many national-level events), but you can incorporate the points list into your seeding of the tournament. For D1 events the top 32 on the points list are ranked first (well, actually, first anyone with 10+ FIE points, but why complicate things here...), then anyone else with senior points jumps to the top of their major (letter) classification. So a B03 ranked 38th in the country would be ahead of all other B's (that aren't ranked in the top 37), but behind all the A's. A B03 ranked 27th would be above everyone not in the top 26.

-B :)

[dilznik]

Hmmm... I'm a U. I've always been a U. I'll be a U for a long time, I think. It's probably because I live in Germany and don't fence in US tournaments (I'm not made of money). I can usually pull up at least the middle to top quarter of a tournament here (let's just ignore everything after March 2005, shall we?), but I'm a USFA U. *Sigh* It's really a self-esteem crusher. In the back of my mind I think the U must stand for "Un-good" or "Un-sportly" or "Un-able" (wait, that's actually a word) and I feel there's a definite reduction in my feelings of self-worth.

That reminds me... When do FIE licenses expire? I have a tournament in Hamburg on Saturday.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

There is. It's called being on the national points list. Goes away once your points do.

Generally not used at local levels (and many national-level events), but you can incorporate the points list into your seeding of the tournament. For D1 events the top 32 on the points list are ranked first (well, actually, first anyone with 10+ FIE points, but why complicate things here...), then anyone else with senior points jumps to the top of their major (letter) classification. So a B03 ranked 38th in the country would be ahead of all other B's (that aren't ranked in the top 37), but behind all the A's. A B03 ranked 27th would be above everyone not in the top 26.

-B

So theoretically if I was ranked #1 in the country, but only had a B (I realize it's extremely unlikely, but with enough top 16 national finishes and then relying only on international points, I guess it's possible), I'd seed behind an A with no national points?

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by prototoast

So theoretically if I was ranked #1 in the country, but only had a B (I realize it's extremely unlikely, but with enough top 16 national finishes and then relying only on international points, I guess it's possible), I'd seed behind an A with no national points?

Tournament seeding starts with International points, then goes to National points, and then goes to Classification.

Adjusting your example, it is possible to be an A-rated fencer and be seeded in an event behind someone who has a B-rating with National points.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by prototoast

So theoretically if I was ranked #1 in the country, but only had a B (I realize it's extremely unlikely, but with enough top 16 national finishes and then relying only on international points, I guess it's possible), I'd seed behind an A with no national points?

No. Read it again, the top 32 are seeded without regard to classification, then anyone beyond that on the points list is moved to the front of their letter band.

And people with 10+ FIE points are ahead of the USFA SNPS.

So, for example, as an A05 ranked 40th, I'm behind anyone with 10+ FIE points, behind anyone in the top 32, and behind any A's ranked 33rd-39th, but ahead of anyone not in one of those categories. If I had the same ranking but only a B05 I would be behind all of the people listed above, plus all of the A's, behind any B's ranked 33rd-39th, but ahead of anyone else.

Similar criteria are used for many other age-groups at national events, although the "32"-number is different for different categories. I think Vet events protect the top 8, for example, etc. I'd imagine that the exact numbers are listed in the athlete's handbook, although I haven't gone to check. Note that some national events do NOT have such protections (eg Div IA, where your B-ranked #1 fencer would seed behind any A's).

-B :)

[CheekyCanuck]

I don't watch the points and ratings, but I like to see how well I'm doing and I don't think there is a better way than to compare yourself with another fencer.
I would like to get better and fence for fun, but I do occasionally have an overly competitive streak.
For example, there is one little smug young woman who I have put in her place once and will do again the first chance I get ... huff... huff... huff....

{Calm, calm, think calm thoughts, think calm thoughts....}

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by CheekyCanuck

.
For example, there is one little smug young woman who I have put in her place once and will do again the first chance I get ... huff... huff... huff....

{Calm, calm, think calm thoughts, think calm thoughts....}

uh-oohhhh..cat fight!! cat fight!! where's my popcorn and drink!!???

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

No. Read it again, the top 32 are seeded without regard to classification, then anyone beyond that on the points list is moved to the front of their letter band.

And people with 10+ FIE points are ahead of the USFA SNPS.

So, for example, as an A05 ranked 40th, I'm behind anyone with 10+ FIE points, behind anyone in the top 32, and behind any A's ranked 33rd-39th, but ahead of anyone not in one of those categories. If I had the same ranking but only a B05 I would be behind all of the people listed above, plus all of the A's, behind any B's ranked 33rd-39th, but ahead of anyone else.

Similar criteria are used for many other age-groups at national events, although the "32"-number is different for different categories. I think Vet events protect the top 8, for example, etc. I'd imagine that the exact numbers are listed in the athlete's handbook, although I haven't gone to check. Note that some national events do NOT have such protections (eg Div IA, where your B-ranked #1 fencer would seed behind any A's).

-B

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

[noahz]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

No. Read it again, the top 32 are seeded without regard to classification, then anyone beyond that on the points list is moved to the front of their letter band.

Except sometimes the bout committee of a local tournament decides that they don't want to recognize national points for seeding....

...like at the Pomme de Terre a few years ago :\ I should have been seeded #1 with my national ranking (#23 at the time, I think), but they decided that National Points were "unfair" or something (or maybe they forgot about them and didn't want to reseed?) so my "stale" A ranking resulted in my being seeded #6 or something like that....

So I had to go and win the tournament to prove their mistake

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by noahz

so my "stale" A ranking resulted in my being seeded #6 or something like that....

yeah, but do seedings really matter once you have an A?? either way you won't have another A in your pool most likely.

[whtouche]

There are degrees beyond just the letters, that's why they have years attached to them. If his national ranking would have put him ahead of his maybe outdated 'A', then he could possibly have wound up with less recent lower ratings (B03 instead of 05 for example) in his pool.

And at the pomme, there's certainly a chance you could end up with multiple As in one pool

[counterattack]

Originally Posted by glowstix

yeah, but do seedings really matter once you have an A?? either way you won't have another A in your pool most likely.

Hah! You tell that to Chuck Alexander who was the "second" A in my pool at PCCs. All 14 or so pools had 2 A-rated fencers. And Chuck hadn't bothered to get a new A for a couple of years so the numbers thought he was "weak". The numbers sometimes don't reflect reality. At least he updated his A so such things won't happen again for a few more years.

But these are the times when it really does matter not just if you have your A, but also how fresh it is, since this was the qualification path to Div IA Summer Nationals, and if you came out of pools with a high enough seed (i.e. you beat the other A) you only needed to win one bout to qualify. And when there are 25+ As, winning more than one DE is a real trick.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by whtouche

There are degrees beyond just the letters, that's why they have years attached to them. If his national ranking would have put him ahead of his maybe outdated 'A', then he could possibly have wound up with less recent lower ratings (B03 instead of 05 for example) in his pool.

And at the pomme, there's certainly a chance you could end up with multiple As in one pool

true enough but i guess i was speaking about the typical local tournaments that I usually find myself in where at best 1 A will show up, so whether you're an A02, A05 or whatever, you won't have another one in your pool..

in fact, this past weekend was my first ever tournament where more than 1 A was present and subsequently didn't end up being an A rated because of the minor detail of 2 A's and 2 B's reaching the top 8. . so as of today i still haven't fenced an "A" tournament.

unfortunately, most of us down here don't figure to end up at "PdT" type of tournaments very often.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by noahz

Except sometimes the bout committee of a local tournament decides that they don't want to recognize national points for seeding....

<SNIP>

So I had to go and win the tournament to prove their mistake :blah:

Why should all local tournaments seed with national points holders given protection? Not all national tournaments do. Div IA, for example, doesn't. Some local tournaments do (fairly rare), most don't. Most national tournaments do, some don't. Div I NACs/Nationals do.

-B :)

[JEC]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Why should all local tournaments seed with national points holders given protection? Not all national tournaments do. Div IA, for example, doesn't. Some local tournaments do (fairly rare), most don't. Most national tournaments do, some don't. Div I NACs/Nationals do.

-B

Perhaps because of rating inflation. If more than 8 fencers are A's in a local tournament, it is likely that they are not seeded according to ability.