Fencing for Cash

[nyacfencing]

Does anybody know the rules (or where to find them) on having cash prizes for tournaments? I know that there are some tournaments out there that give them, and that they are legal based on how you do it. We are looking to hold a circuit event this season with some nice awards if possible...

[Bran]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

Does anybody know the rules (or where to find them) on having cash prizes for tournaments? I know that there are some tournaments out there that give them, and that they are legal based on how you do it. We are looking to hold a circuit event this season with some nice awards if possible...

Yes. The Arnold Fencing Classic 2006, to be held in March.

Although it hasn't been confirmed, the organizers are targeting to have $100,000 of prize money for an "Elite International Sabre" event: $50,000 split among the top three finishers in men and $50,000 for the top three finishers in women.

http://www.arnoldfencingclassic.com/

Bran

[Goofy]

If your concern is regarding amateur status, you can go to the USFA Operations Manual:

Chapter V: Amateurism
Appendix C: FIE Statutes on "amateurism"

Also, from the July 6, 2003, BoD minutes:

5. Motion regarding amateurism and prize money at competitions.

MOTION: Resolved that because the USFA has adopted the FIE's standards on amateurism and because the FIE no longer restricts the award of prizes in fencing competitions, prizes may be awarded at USFA sanctioned events.

All fencers are advised to use care and caution in participating in competitions in which prizes (either economic or in kind) are offered, as other organizations to which USFA members may belong or be subject (such as the NCAA and state scholastic athletic associations) have rules and standards that may differ from those of the USFA, the violation of which may result in penalties, exclusion, loss of eligibility or other sanctions by such organizations.

Discussion ensued and the Board supports the adherence to the FIE policy. Also it was suggested by Mr. D’Asaro that this information be communicated in appropriate USFA vehicles such as the newsletter or website.

Basically, cash prizes are allowed and it is up to the fencer to determine if the acceptance of the award violates any regulations from an organization other than the USFA.

[CvilleFencer]

I think that the reason you see so few cash or even decent prize awarding tourneys in the US is because of the retarded NCAA and collegiate rules (trying really hard not to turn this into an anti NCAA/Basketball/Football thread…) regarding that sort of thing. Young fencers who may want to continue fencing in college or perhaps even qualify for some sort of fencing scholarship won't want to risk there future status and current college age fencers already now the rules or now of them and don't want to rock the boat. Since so many of our top fencers are under 24 (it is much easier to be a full time fencer without a job/family/kids/bills your parents won't help with etc.) having cash prizes would be a detriment to the turnout of a lot of local/regional events. The only decent cash prize tourney in the US that I know of is the Duel in the Desert. I am not sure how they set things up, but I get the feeling it has something to do with the fact that, IIRC they give out poker chips, not actual cash...

[Mauler]

I've been to a few USFA events where they gave out handsome cash prizes. In one of such events, fencers who were expected to finish in medal rounds, however, were of college-bound age, and considerable number of competitors headed for the NCAA years. In consideration of the future champions out there, the oragnizers handled the matter in the following manner.

"Today's prizes will be such-and-such amount, divided between the medalists. Now, for those of you who are looking into fenciing in the NCAA's, please be aware that accepting this prize might jeopardize your eligibility. You know who you are. So if you end up winning, you WILL NOT get the prize. I repeat. We WILL NOT give you the prize. We will give you a nice medal and we will clap our hands a little harder for y'all. Unclaimed prizes will instead be donated to the hosting club, to be used for the Good of Fencing. If, at the end of the day, you find yourself in this situation, PLEASE come see us outside for a somke. We will buy you some pizza or something. We will buy you a very nice pie of pizza. That is all."

No prizes were given out that day.

While this may be skirting the eligibility issues a little, it should be noted that present that day were a few high level coaches, many of the future generation's finest fencers-to-be, and their parents. This was met by their approval and appreciation.

The eligibility issue is ultimately an individual fencer's responsibility. But many people out there don't do the necessary research, and believe that they will be safe if they stick to the norms. Preventive measures are far more pleasant than enforcement. It would suck for a future champion to be excluded because someone witnessed a certain coach buying him/her a dinner at an inopportune time of the recruiting year, after all...

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by Mauler

Unclaimed prizes will instead be donated to the hosting club, to be used for the Good of Fencing. If, at the end of the day, you find yourself in this situation, PLEASE come see us outside for a somke. We will buy you some pizza or something. We will buy you a very nice pie of pizza. That is all."

I think the rules are sufficiently stupid that they could get in trouble if they accept the pizza, if it was awarded on the condition that they won. Not just that they were hungry.

Shlep

[nyacfencing]

I am going to add a second related question to this thread...

Clearly NCAA athletes can accept medals or trophies... But what trophies are acceptable? For instance, can the trophy be several hundred dollars worth of equipment? Where is the line?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

I am going to add a second related question to this thread...

Clearly NCAA athletes can accept medals or trophies... But what trophies are acceptable? For instance, can the trophy be several hundred dollars worth of equipment? Where is the line?

As far as fencing goes, the line is if some opposing coach cares. Otherwise, those compliance issues really don't mean a damn thing. No one is checking up on fencers. No one cares about fencers. If someone paid me $1000 for fencing, nothing would happen to my eligibility until some opposing coach found out and made a complaint. If no opposing coaches cared, then nothing would be a problem.

[dcmdale]

From the NCAA Website:

Bylaw 12.1.1.4.1 – Exception for Prize money Prior to Full-Time Collegiate Enrollment. Prior to full-time collegiate enrollment, an individual may accept prize money based on his or her place finish or performance in an open athletics event. Such prize money may not exceed actual and necessary expenses and may be provided only by the sponsor of the open event.
http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/enfo...ize_money_memo

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

From the NCAA Website:

Bylaw 12.1.1.4.1 – Exception for Prize money Prior to Full-Time Collegiate Enrollment. Prior to full-time collegiate enrollment, an individual may accept prize money based on his or her place finish or performance in an open athletics event. Such prize money may not exceed actual and necessary expenses and may be provided only by the sponsor of the open event.
http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/enfo...ize_money_memo

Do "actual and necessary expenses" include the entry fee only, or (assumig the fencer lives 500 miles from the venue,) could it include airfare, food, and a night or two in a hotel room? Depending on what kind of plane ticket and room the fencer got, this could very easily exceed the $1000 DITD grand prize.

My advice to any potential NCAA fencer (or someone on a Varsity High School team) is to not accept a dime's worth of cash prizes until you graduate from college.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by Bran

Yes. The Arnold Fencing Classic 2006, to be held in March.

Although it hasn't been confirmed, the organizers are targeting to have $100,000 of prize money for an "Elite International Sabre" event: $50,000 split among the top three finishers in men and $50,000 for the top three finishers in women.

http://www.arnoldfencingclassic.com/

Bran

Given the caliber of fencing we say at the recent Elite Interntional Sabre event at Nellya recently, I'm sure the prospet of winning enough cash to buy a new car will make for one tough tournament!

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

Given the caliber of fencing we say at the recent Elite Interntional Sabre event at Nellya recently, I'm sure the prospet of winning enough cash to buy a new car will make for one tough tournament!

If they offered money like that, I'm sure the crowd they'd attract would make the Nellya competition seem weak.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by prototoast

If they offered money like that, I'm sure the crowd they'd attract would make the Nellya competition seem weak.

Indeed. It would probably overshadow all of the NACs and many of the World Clups, for that matter.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Now I dont know about that, national points seem to be a big motivator, after all, fencers dump thousands a year into the sport just to get national points. I think the NACs would still be bigger.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Now I dont know about that, national points seem to be a big motivator, after all, fencers dump thousands a year into the sport just to get national points. I think the NACs would still be bigger.

The NACs will certainly be bigger size-wise. The Arnold Fencing Classic limits the number of entries due to time and media constraints. However, I think the Arnold Classic with this kind of prize money would be more competitive since more strong international fencers will fly to the states to compete for a chance at $16,000 if they make the final 4. You’re right, the best U.S. fencers attend virtually every NAC for the points, but there are usually only a handful of foreign fencers at the NACs.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

Do "actual and necessary expenses" include the entry fee only, or (assumig the fencer lives 500 miles from the venue,) could it include airfare, food, and a night or two in a hotel room? Depending on what kind of plane ticket and room the fencer got, this could very easily exceed the $1000 DITD grand prize.

My advice to any potential NCAA fencer (or someone on a Varsity High School team) is to not accept a dime's worth of cash prizes until you graduate from college.

The actual wording of the rule is (rather than the press release) is:

[quote=NCAA]12.1.1.4.1 Exception for Prize Money Prior to Full-Time Collegiate Enrollment. Prior to collegiate enrollment, an individual may accept prize money based on his or her place finish or performance in an open athletics event (i.e., an event that is not invitation only). Such prize
money may not exceed actual and necessary expenses and may be provided only by the sponsor of the open event. (Adopted: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)[quote]

"Actual and Necessary" does not appear to be properly defined... at least I haven't found the definition yet in the rules; however, by negation seems to be covered by

Originally Posted by NCAA

Prohibited...
12.1.1.1.4.3 Expenses from Outside Team or Organization. Expenses received from an outside amateur sports team or organization in excess of actual and necessary travel, room and board expenses, and apparel and equipment (for individual and team use only from teams or organizations not affiliated with member institutions, including local sports clubs as set forth in Bylaw 13.11.2.3) for competition and practice held in preparation for such
competition.

The NCAA rules are at: http://www2.ncaa.org/legislation_and...es_and_bylaws/

Note that I have been quoting from the Div 1 rules... rules for other types of schools differ.

A summary document of NCAA eligibility rules is on the NCAA Amateurism Certification Clearinghouse site. http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/ach/ACH_Flyer.pdf


Reading through the history of this issue on the NCAA site, it is one that they have struggled with. On the one hand, allowing prize money for high schoolers is a huge loophole for recruiting. On the other, the NCAA publicly recognizes that competing at a high level is expensive and that there are diversity issues associated with restricting athletic participation to only those whose parents can foot the entire bill. This is their current compromise.

Simply saying "no" to a prize seems very conservative to me. My approach (having practiced law for 10 years and having a "B" rated H.S. Sophmore daughter) would be to contact the NCAA Certification Clearinghouse if I was entering in an event where there might be prize money and find out what their interpretation of the rules is... ideally in writing.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

Simply saying "no" to a prize seems very conservative to me. My approach (having practiced law for 10 years and having a "B" rated H.S. Sophmore daughter) would be to contact the NCAA Certification Clearinghouse if I was entering in an event where there might be prize money and find out what their interpretation of the rules is... ideally in writing.

Even though being "conservative" is rarely a bad idea in cases like this, I would concur with your suggestion. Getting prior approval would certrainly cover all the bases.