All Epeeists may now relax...

[Sword Mistress]

there was already a system that does ALL 3 weapons. it was developed a few years back and has been awaiting FIE approval. nothing wrong with it. FIE approval is just a big pain in the ***.

[telkanuru]

Not true. The Estoc system to my knowledge transmitted and required a modification to the epee tip...

[DHCJr]

There was also a Toykyo sport system and one by Saint George. The Toykyo sport system favored the left side rather dramatically. It was funny watching them test it. The Saint George required special shoes and transmitted through the piste. Addidas sold the shoes for about $2 more than their regular fencing shoes. The one problem was jumping off the strip. If they jumped up and landed back on the piste there was no problem as the box waited for signals from both transmitters which had clocks before registering the touch. The clocks were put in synqc before each bout. The FIE didn't approve because the fencers had to buy new equipment.

[Gav]

Don,

If the broadcasting by EM is illegal how does the 'wireless' Sabre kit work?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Gav

Don,

If the broadcasting by EM is illegal how does the 'wireless' Sabre kit work?

It's all self-contained on the fencers.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by prototoast

It's all self-contained on the fencers.

Which explains exactly nothing.

Gav, there are others who can explain it better than I can, but as I understand it, the sabre has a light charge on it, and the electronics sense when the charge changes because you've touched the other guy's lame, and a certain amount of the charge flows into it. It requires quite sensitive measurement of electrical potentials--the dreaded conductive T-shirt somehow works to increase the potential.

The electronics turn on the mask lights AND send an radio signal to the scoring towers, but only the mask lights are supposed to really count.

MR

[Gav]

Ahh, well that explains it a bit. How are things like cut off times decided or is there no such thing in wireless sabre?

While we are on the subject - how the hell is that supposed to work for Epee and double touches?

I'm quit confused.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Gav

Ahh, well that explains it a bit. How are things like cut off times decided or is there no such thing in wireless sabre?

Well, when one fencer hits the other, the fencer who's hit's set up can recognize that he's been hit, and that starts a timer such that if he doesn't score within the blockout time, it kills it. This is the main problem for epee, since there is no lame, people don't know how to set it up so that the fencer who is hit knows he's been hit to stop the action.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Gav

Ahh, well that explains it a bit. How are things like cut off times decided or is there no such thing in wireless sabre?

While we are on the subject - how the hell is that supposed to work for Epee and double touches?

I'm quit confused.

It probably doesn't work for double touches. Say bye, bye...

[keith]

However as Donald pointed out without sending a RF signal there is no way that the fencer who is hit on target can be locked out. The voltage you would need to send through the average epeeist to get a detactable signal would be quite large - cattle prod fencing anyone?


for sabre its much easier - the charge flow from the sabre to the lame of the fencer who has been hit can be detected by the apparatus of the fencer who is hit so starting the lockout count down. No need for pixies and elves.

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by Gav

Ahh, well that explains it a bit. How are things like cut off times decided or is there no such thing in wireless sabre?

While we are on the subject - how the hell is that supposed to work for Epee and double touches?

I'm quit confused.

For wireless sabre, in short the whole transaction between the two devices occurs during the times that the weapon is in contact with the lame. It is during those times that the lockout and everything else is coordinated between the two devices.

In Foil you can deal with the communication much the same way. There is a circuit that is completed between the two fencers at some point during a valid touch, off target lockouts pose a special problem (hmm Roche proposed something about off target not stopping the action) because the two fencers are electrically isolated when the weapon triggers some stop to the action.

In Epee you have that same problem with all touches (not to even mention a floor touch). The weapons only are in contact with one another during a grounded bell shot (or some other contact, tip touches, or possibly the wacking of the blade on the tip). All other currently occur with both weapons electrically isolated from each other. The only other possibility for the two systems to communicate would be through some sort of slight field sensitivity to the fencer. Using the uniform and fencer as a conductor, like the sabre system with a less ideal conductor than the lame. This is possible with some sensitive electronics. For my 2 cents worth I think it would be too sensitive to environmental issues (clothing material, local emf) to be 100% reliable. Even at that, if it were 100% reliable I think it's inherent complexity (magic boxes - BAD) would be off-putting to many fencers causing something what I call an "artificial barrier to adoption".

It's a pity that the FIE has been so short sighted to preclude that all transmissions are insecure. Wireless communications has come a long way and is now exceptionally secure though 100%. Someone capable of dissecting a intentionally robust encrypted wireless communication and spoofing them to an authentication device can probably find more lucrative exploits for his talents than rigging fencing matches.

Shlep.

[keith]

Originally Posted by shlepzig

In Epee you have that same problem with all touches (not to even mention a floor touch).

the little plastic widget would seem to solve this problem - simply apply the same signal to both guard and piste and viola.

Originally Posted by shlepzig

The only other possibility for the two systems to communicate would be through some sort of slight field sensitivity to the fencer. Using the uniform and fencer as a conductor, like the sabre system with a less ideal conductor than the lame. This is possible with some sensitive electronics. For my 2 cents worth I think it would be too sensitive to environmental issues (clothing material, local emf) to be 100% reliable. Even at that, if it were 100% reliable I think it's inherent complexity (magic boxes - BAD) would be off-putting to many fencers causing something what I call an "artificial barrier to adoption".

good point, maybe I should apply a teflon spray to my whites - doesn't that scotchguard fabric protector come in handy cans? Should up my resistance nicely.

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by keith

the little plastic widget would seem to solve this problem - simply apply the same signal to both guard and piste and viola.

Thinking about this, floor shots would probably resolve themselves. Except on a grounded strip.

Originally Posted by keith

good point, maybe I should apply a teflon spray to my whites - doesn't that scotchguard fabric protector come in handy cans? Should up my resistance nicely.

In terms of field sensitivity, upping your resistance with scotch-guard is probably not all you need to do. I'm not particularly knowledgable about subtle electical stuff, so I can't speak to it exactly, but I suspect any conductivity greater than that of a large air gap would be enough to set such a device off. All it needs to do is discharge a field built up on the fencers body. However the potential of that field could be sufficiently discarged if a fencer were to hit a floor with some conductivity (concrete, some carpets, perhaps some wood floors). Also in terms of gaming the system you could do a number of other more drastic things to isolate yourself from the system.

In terms of Telkanaru's testing with the company who has developed this box. Now that they have determined a system will work, they have to figure about how somebody might be able to make it not work. It has to work on some electrical conductive principle, so a canny fencer with a desire to hedge his bets can probably foil it in some way, or at least gain some advantage.

Shlep.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by keith

good point, maybe I should apply a teflon spray to my whites - doesn't that scotchguard fabric protector come in handy cans? Should up my resistance nicely.

Are there ways to cheat now? Yes. Will there be ways to cheat under any new scoring equipment/system? Yes. Will the person using them still be lower than scum, get caught, carded, austricized and maybe forcefully talked to about the concept of fair play in the locker room/parking lot? You bet your ***.

So, are you just arguing for arguments sake? People are trying to come up with ways to not have to wear full body lames and have the elimination of the double touch just for the sake of using cockroaches wireless saber system bastardized for epee. Less undirected negativity would be benificial. You are a fairly smart guy, or seem to be from some of your posts. Surely you understand that these people are trying to come up with ways to help the sport right?

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Are there ways to cheat now? Yes. Will there be ways to cheat under any new scoring equipment/system? Yes. Will the person using them still be lower than scum, get caught, carded, austricized and maybe forcefully talked to about the concept of fair play in the locker room/parking lot? You bet your ***.

So, are you just arguing for arguments sake? People are trying to come up with ways to not have to wear full body lames and have the elimination of the double touch just for the sake of using cockroaches wireless saber system bastardized for epee. Less undirected negativity would be benificial. You are a fairly smart guy, or seem to be from some of your posts. Surely you understand that these people are trying to come up with ways to help the sport right?

I wouldn't be so vehement about it. There are ways to cheat certainly, and cheaters should not be tolerated. But a lot of it can be sussed out with human perception. We rely on electronic boxes to record the touches and handle those things that are difficult for our puny human minds to do (1/20 to 1/25th of a second is pretty short). Those boxes are simple and isolated, enough so that it is is difficult to beat them without giving some cue to a judge (whose fabulous human mind can deal with that subtlety really well) who will find a rigged plug, or see the floor shot or a self inflicted foot tap. When dealing with a subtle electrical system (designed basically because the rules required that a system be designed that does an end-around on the rules themselves) it would be more difficult for a judge or an armorer to detect such cheating. This posibility would bring the entire set of results using the system in doubt, whether someone was cheating or not.

I am all for evolution of the sport, and I love new gadgets. I think this thing could be great. However it won't be great if FIE will not approve it if someone figures that an otherwise undetectable spray (with plausible deniability, "I didn't want them to stain") on a jacket or knickers will keep him from receiving touches. What about the situation where someone unwittingly defeats the system with a cheap china-town t-shirt made from industrial waste fibers, or oxy-clean or whatever. The current system is pretty transparent to cheating, a more complicated system will be less transparent, so the powers that be, and fencers everywhere would demand that there be controls in place to prevent it.

Shlep.

[Agent_V]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Are there ways to cheat now? Yes. Will there be ways to cheat under any new scoring equipment/system? Yes. Will the person using them still be lower than scum, get caught, carded, austricized and maybe forcefully talked to about the concept of fair play in the locker room/parking lot? You bet your ***.

So, are you just arguing for arguments sake? People are trying to come up with ways to not have to wear full body lames and have the elimination of the double touch just for the sake of using cockroaches wireless saber system bastardized for epee. Less undirected negativity would be benificial. You are a fairly smart guy, or seem to be from some of your posts. Surely you understand that these people are trying to come up with ways to help the sport right?

Wait a second, are you attacking the idea that new systems should be *fully tested*, i.e. to make sure that they aren't any worse than the previous system? Didn't you learn anything from the new timings scandal?

The justification that "they are only trying to help the sport" is one of the lamest ever, on par with Bush et al majorly restricting civil liberties because "we're trying to help defeat the terrorists". I think most (top) fencers would like to use a system as close to secure as the current one we have as possible - so why don't we try and find out as well as we can just how secure it is?

Alexander

[Mr Epee]

Mr Epee says:

Just like to remind everyone that we did put a man on the moon!

Surely, wireless fencing can't be that far behind.

[keith]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

So, are you just arguing for arguments sake? People are trying to come up with ways to not have to wear full body lames and have the elimination of the double touch just for the sake of using cockroaches wireless saber system bastardized for epee. Less undirected negativity would be benificial. You are a fairly smart guy, or seem to be from some of your posts. Surely you understand that these people are trying to come up with ways to help the sport right?

Are these people trying to help the sport - well this helps only if it is cheaper and more robust than current equipment. The most robust system for club use would probably be a wireless RF system (of course no good for the FIE). If we just wanted a reeless system I am sure the suppliers could have one for sale in short order. Actually I am amazed at the ingenuity that must have gone into this in order to satisfy the daft FIE rules.

So although there are two ways this thing may be working RF signals or field discharge - in which case both the fencer discharging and the one being discharged upon (wonderful mental image) have to sense the event. Only the second would satisfy current FIE rules.

But as shlepzig pointed out getting something to work under conditions where everyone is working hard to get it to work is only the first part of the problem.

If this is a field system then it is possible to game the system by accident; for example does it rely on the electrical isolation of the fencer from the floor? If so a worn sole or a dangling sweaty sock might be enough to foul up the system. What are the parameters for the conductivuty/capacitance of the fencers? It is quite possible that different uniform fabrics could tweak the sensitivity of the system. Let alone worry about salt content, will the FIE now mandate that epeeists must wash their uniforms every week? Will there be approved levels of deoderant usage?

So I am not being negative just curious - I assume that the smart people worked all this out.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Mr Epee says:

Just like to remind everyone that we did put a man on the moon!

Surely, wireless fencing can't be that far behind.

Of course if the FIE had been incharge they would have mandated that you could only go to the moon after orbiting mars.