Question on holding qualifiers

[sabregrrl]

I've asked the national office and basically no one seems to be able to give me a quick answer (I've been waiting over a week), and I've slogged through the athlete's manual with no luck.

Is there any requirement on which order you hold Division and Sectional qualifiers?

Our sections are being held earlier than they have been in the past. Looking at the paths, what I see happening is people qualifying for Div 2 through sections (by qualifying for Div 1A) and maybe reducing our Div 2/3 turnout as a result? But any drawbacks or requirements? Of course, the USFA could always change the paths again Thx!

[oiuyt]

I haven't ever seen any requirements on the ordering. Divisions that I've belonged to in the past have had D2/3 qualifiers both before and after senior sectionals. If someone earns a qualification slot for D2 at sectionals they are considered an auto-qual at a latter D2/3 qualifier and are skipped over in assigning qualification slots (but still count towards the number of entrants and therefore can help increase the number of qualifier slots). On the other hand they're less likely to fence in the event (of course it's one more training opportunity, and if they don't think about it as a qualifier (which, to them, it no longer is), but rather as a stronger than average C and under, they should probably be going anyway.

It should have relatively minor effect either way.

-B :)

[Mr Epee]

I don't have time to look up a reference, but in the last round of stupid division wars the National office said that Division Qualifiers are supposed to come before sectionals... BUT I honestly don't think that anyone really cares.

[Goofy]

The Operations Manual indicates that Divisionals should be held prior to Sectionals by stating that Divisionals can be used as qualifiers for Sectionals:

Chapter III: Entering competitions
Section 2: Qualification criteria
A. For competitions

(1) All qualifying competitions shall conform strictly to the rules governing USFA competitions. Each division, at its discretion, may designate its Divisional Championships as its qualifying competition to the Sectional Championships. The divisions and sections must give at least three weeks notice of the date, time and place of the qualifying competitions.

[Mr Epee]

Thank you, Goofy ... good job!

[fencerX]

The Operations Manual indicates that Divisionals should be held prior to Sectionals by stating that Divisionals can be used as qualifiers for Sectionals:

Wrong. You quote the manual correctly but then you go ahead and put incorrect words in its mouth.

Read the section of the operations manual you quoted. It clearly says "Each division, at its discretion, may". That's completely different than "should".

A division, may choose to run its qualifiers to sectionals as a different competition from their divisional qualifiers for nationals. Also some sections run "open" sectional championship events, open to any US citizen or permanent resident who's a member of the section, then there isn't any qualifier at the divisional level for sectionals at all. In either case, a division could hold its qualifiers to nationals, at its discretion, after sectionals.

[Goofy]

This seems to indicate that Divisionals are to be run before Sectionals:

Operations Manual

Appendix H. Key Dates for Championship Events

SUMMER NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS
COMPETITION-DEADLINE

Divisional qualifying competitions-Three weeks before Sectional Championships
Sectional Championships-Three weeks before first day of Nationals
Sectional qualifying forms due at National Office-Three business days after Sectional Championships

[Schiavona]

Divisions have to hold their qualifying (to Nationals) before the submission date on the form they get from the National Office. The same for Sectional Championships. Pages 24-25 of the Ops manual. A while ago Sectionals and Divisionals had to be held a certain number of weeks before Nationals. It's important to read the Ops manual 'cause they sneak in changes to things that "everybody knows".

[Schiavona]

This seems to indicate that Divisionals are to be run before Sectionals:

Operations Manual

Appendix H. Key Dates for Championship Events

SUMMER NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS
COMPETITION-DEADLINE

Divisional qualifying competitions-Three weeks before Sectional Championships
Sectional Championships-Three weeks before first day of Nationals
Sectional qualifying forms due at National Office-Three business days after Sectional Championships

Ah! So it's still in there. Not that this mattered in my Section last year, as my division was the only one to move its quals to before Sectionals. Nobody else (National Office) seemed to care.

[Aliera]

But what about, for instance, holding Cadet Qualifiers before Div II/III qualifiers? I've never seen this done and it seems that it would increase the number of Div II qualifiers, seeing as many who qualify for Div II are under 16.

[oiuyt]

Then, of course, is the fact that several of the above are likely confusing divisional qualifiers TO sectionals (for those sections which require such), said qualifiers which may also be designated as divisional championships and which, presumably must come before the sectional evet to which they are qualifiers, and divisional div II/III qualifiers which are NOT qualifiers to sectionals, do NOT need to occur prior to sectionals, and which cannot be the same event as the division championships unless the division doesn't allow A/B fencers to participate in their championships (which would be more than a bit funny) (note: some divisions DO allow A/B fencers into this event despite the USFA prohibition on doing such).

Division Championships, which is what Goofy's citation discusses are NOT div II/III qualifiers, making the citation, at best, a red herring in this discussion.

-B :)

[Mr Epee]

Oiuyt,

Nice try for a save, but if you call/e-mail the USFA National Office and ask about scheduling requirements for Div 2/3 Qualifiers... AND explicitly state that fencers in your region ARE NOT REQUIRED to qualify for sectionals.

(Trust me I've made that point.)

Then they will direct you to exactly the same references and deadline requirements posted earlier by Goofy... SO it's a little unfair to dismiss them as a red herring.

Although I appreciate your position, I would feel much better having a printed reference in hand.

[oiuyt]

Perhaps I wasn't clear, I was referring to Goofy's first citation, not the second.

From re-reading, I believe that Goofy's second citation DOES apply, although it's outdated and needs to be changed (I would be unsurprised if it pre-dates division II/III national championships entirely).

Under what the ops manual says divisions are currently obligated to hold D 2/3 qualifiers well in advance of sectional championships, meaning (at least for most sections) by mid-April at the latest. Most divisions that I've looked at recently are probably not in compliance with this requirement most seasons. I am a former member of a division that routinely held their D 2/3 qualifiers in early March, which, clearly, complies. Another division I'm a former member of holds theirs in early May (usually the week before Sectionals, last season it was the week after), which, clearly, does not comply.

So, apologies for the confusion caused by my post that was intended to reply to Goofy's first citation and the posts around it. I was certainly not specific enough to be clear about what I was responding to.

Also note Schiavona's citation of another portion of the ops manual that, while not in contradiction of the appendix citation of Goofy's, could be considered a change. Technically it could mean that a division must be prior to BOTH the 3 weeks prior to sectionals requirement AND the season-specific requirement sent out by national office. I happen to agree with what Schia suggests that this was a change rather than an additional requirement. There's a reason why the ops manual is prominently described as a "Work in progress". :)

-B :)

[sabregrrl]

I usually refer to the athlete's handbook as it is the most up to date most of the time. The paths changed since the ops manual and if I remember correctly, this past season the deadlines where the same for sections and divisions to the national office. Here is Michael Massik's response to our Section Chair:

"Here is what we think is happening, am I wrong?
A couple of years ago when we calculated the qualifiers at the
Sectional D1A event, we always compared the report with each report from the Divisions to allow for the maximum number of qualifiers possible. In
other words, for those who qualified for Division II at the Section,
we first checked to see if they qualified for Division II at the
Division level. If they did we considered them automatics and qualified the
next person down and so on. However since then, the Board has changed the
qualifying paths substantially so that the comparison process is not
as essential. In fact, the practice for the last two seasons has
been to check the section qualifying reports as written rather than
checking them in comparison with each individual division.

What Jamie wants to know is whether holding the division qualifiers
after the section qualifier is allowed (he is probably thinking of the past method as described above). I think the answer is probably
yes given the change in qualifying paths and processing methods, but
I would have to defer to someone, possibly even the Board, for the
final answer. As far as I know we have been unable to find any rule
that deals with this situation."


I really hope I don't have to wait for the board to make a decision, we are just trying to finalize a schedule and this is why the question was raised.