Pentathletes

[angriff]

Has anyone fenced a pentathlete (presumably at epee)? Is their game any different from a "normal" fencer, seeing that they only fence for a single touche?

[Sciurus-Rex]

Yep. Not much of a bouting "game," really, because they focus on making up lost points throughout the rest of their pent-events. With no opportunity to feel out an opponent over several touches, it's all about one high-odds tactical set-up for a touch or double. Win or lose, no regrets, no fixes, no looking back.

Not to say their skills aren't decent, mind you -- no intent to insult anyone here -- but they're fencing for a different cummulative point total down the road than most of us are used to. And, yes, I've also been told they focus more of their training on the other four events for the same reason.

[MaskDenter]

"...it's all about one high-odds tactical set-up for a touch or double......"

Actually, I believe that a Double touch is considerd a loss for both athletes, same if no one scores a point (1 Min. Bouts). Presumably they would try to avoid a double as much as their opponent scoring. Hope this helps.

[veeco]

Pentathletes used to be decent epee fencers. The current crop of pentathletes however isn't quite as good as they used to be. I have never fenced a current pentathlete that I couldn't beat.

A former pentathlete was telling me that most pentathletes don't train much for fencing nowadays. He said a lot of the current crop of pentathletes are first and foremost swimmers. The rationale behind it was that it is easy to train a swimmer into shooting, riding, running, and fencing, whereas it is very hard and quite hopeless to train something else into a swimmer.

[glowstix]

i fenced a pentathlete chick a little over a year or so ago and got hammered (then again i'd just begun epee at that point). she was pretty good...(and hot. )

[Katman]

Originally Posted by veeco

Pentathletes used to be decent epee fencers. The current crop of pentathletes however isn't quite as good as they used to be. I have never fenced a current pentathlete that I couldn't beat.

A former pentathlete was telling me that most pentathletes don't train much for fencing nowadays. He said a lot of the current crop of pentathletes are first and foremost swimmers. The rationale behind it was that it is easy to train a swimmer into shooting, riding, running, and fencing, whereas it is very hard and quite hopeless to train something else into a swimmer.

Huh, now that is interesting.

We have a Pentathalete training center (or did) somewhere down in South Texas. Can't say that I've ever fenced any pentatheletes though.

I've always been interested in mutli-discipline events like that. Did they mention why it's utterly hopeless to turn a non-swimmer into a good swimmer?

[veeco]

Because the sheer amount of training required and the technique one has to learn takes a long time.

Also, the way pentathlon is scored means that it is easier to grab points in the swimming and running events than in the shooting/fencing/equestrian. Basically IIRC, there is a cap on the maximum amount of points you can get in the 3 non timed events, whereas there is no cap on the swimming/running. Further, to swim fast in a 200m, there are a lot of training hours to put in, and there is quite a bit of technique involved, as opposed to 1500m, which is the last event, and easier to "give it all you've got", since you just need to pass the guy in front of you to gain one place in the final rankings. Add that to the fact that to get good in 1500m running you need to be as nimble and as light as possible, that makes it impossible to do as well in the other events than a swimmer would.

[the doc]

we get quite a few pentathletes in britain competing in open competition. in fact, in the women's epeé, there are quite a few at the top level and the current british champion was/is a pentathlete.

one thing you can guarantee when fencing a pentathlete is that you aren't going to do them for fitness, so you are best trying to use a variety of moves to test the limits of their technique.

one of the coaches at my club was a pentathlete, then switched full time to epeé. he fenced in barcelona olympics for poland. so its not a given that they are poor fencers.

probably best to treat them like another fencer, but one who is a good athlete.

[veeco]

Barcelona was in '92, more than 10 years ago. I rest my case.

[Katman]

Originally Posted by veeco

Because the sheer amount of training required and the technique one has to learn takes a long time.

Also, the way pentathlon is scored means that it is easier to grab points in the swimming and running events than in the shooting/fencing/equestrian. Basically IIRC, there is a cap on the maximum amount of points you can get in the 3 non timed events, whereas there is no cap on the swimming/running. Further, to swim fast in a 200m, there are a lot of training hours to put in, and there is quite a bit of technique involved, as opposed to 1500m, which is the last event, and easier to "give it all you've got", since you just need to pass the guy in front of you to gain one place in the final rankings. Add that to the fact that to get good in 1500m running you need to be as nimble and as light as possible, that makes it impossible to do as well in the other events than a swimmer would.

Ahhh. Well bummer. Thanks for the reply.

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by angriff

Has anyone fenced a pentathlete (presumably at epee)? Is their game any different from a "normal" fencer, seeing that they only fence for a single touche?

YES. I have fenced several and they all seem to have VERY strong ceding parries, flicks, and fleches. I don't know if that's the general style or just coincidence. They tend to have a very strong defense and one *almost* unstoppable attack.

[MaskDenter]

Just FYI, it is a 3000m run not the 1500m. Also it is supposed to be a cross-country run, though it can be on the road, its just not a track event.

As for the 200m swimming event, I think it is considerd the most important event, beacause of the wide range of scores possible. Without getting too into it, all 5 events are based around a "par" of 1000 points. The swim is probably the easiest one to NOT score a single point in, beacause of its particular scoring system which is 1000 points for a men's time of 2:30. You get, or are deducted 1 point for every TENTH of a second faster or slower you go. That would equal 1 point for a 4:09.90, and "0" for anything slower. I'd suggest trying this out at your local pool, even great athletes who are not primarily swimmers will likely fall short of this time. If you are stellar at the other 4 events Id still wager you need to be swimming under 3 min. to be competitive in the end.

[Lemberg]

There is a pentathlete in my club, who is a very very decent fencer, in fact he is on our A team for the nationals...... I would not say his game is any different from a full-time fencer. His name is Tik Maynard, he made top 16 at Vancouver world cup last month is process eliminating a couple of tiop fencers including Travis exum who had just finished in top 8 at the Summer Nationals. Plus what all pentathletes have over some fencers is excellent conditioning, speed and serious endurance. Another example of a pentathelete who is (well was) and excellent fencer - another one of our locals here in Vancouver - Laurie Shong. In fact I believe at two Olympic Games he idd both fencing and pentathlon. And it's not really teh case that he was a strong fencer who was also good enough to do pentathlon. I believe his favorite event was swimming... Also, the other two top fencers in our club are ex-pentathelets who have focused solely on fencing simply because there is virtually no pentathlon in BC nowadays. I'm sure that most of the epeeists have heard of Tigran and Enej Bajgoric - Tigran is on teh seniorfencing team while Enej is also a solid top 16 Canadian fencer.. So i don't know if good pentathletes are in any way inferior to full time fencers.

[dreamer90024]

I have a friend who is a pentathlete and is a good epee fencer. I don't find her game all that different, though this may be because she competes regularly in fencing tournaments and is used to fencing for more than one touch. She does have a tendency to be very good in la belles though.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by angriff

Has anyone fenced a pentathlete (presumably at epee)?

Yes. We used to get hordes of pentathletes at our club before they all got sent to Bath. Steph Cook and Katie Allenby - 2000 Olympic Gold & Bronze medallists respectively - used to train with us often.

Originally Posted by angriff

Is their game any different from a "normal" fencer, seeing that they only fence for a single touche?

It's harsh, but normally I say that pentathletes are only a fifth as good Generally speaking, here in the UK... I do think their standard has dropped slightly over the past few years. Whilst they're not a pushover they're not terribly hard to beat either.

Steph and the vast majority of pentathletes were never a challenge - Steph used to wear shin pads because she got hit there so often! - whereas Kate was a lot tougher to beat, and a good fencer in her own right (she won the National [fencing] Championships last month).

With all that said, there are still quite a few pentathletes competing in the Opens, and some of them do get good results... so, whoever's on the other end of the piste, treat them just the same and focus on one hit at a time!

[Mr Epee]

Veeco is correct!

Laurie Shong, Rob Stull and John Moreau were all Pentathletes, and some of the best fencers in North America over the past twenty years... I'm also thinking that Paul Pesty was a pentathlete of a slightly older vintage.

These guys were all excellent fencers.

Then you have your guys like Mike Gostigan... a very competent fencer, but obviously a specialist in the other events. He also managed to set the world record for points earned in a pentathelon event.

The strength of fencers in the event seems to have dropped fairly dramatically right around the same time the event was shortend from many days to a few.

[MaskDenter]

...yes from one event a day, to all five in one day since Atlanta I believe.....

[Mr Epee]

Interesting, after reading MaskDenter's explanation of the swimming scoring... and realizing that it is now a one day event (I was thinking 2 days for some reason.)

I realized that it's much more important to expend your energy on those type events, than in the fencing...

I could see a prisoners dilemma scenario playing out for the fencing. If everyone (or in this case most everyone) agrees not to specialize in this event then the points will still be awarded and everyone moves on pretty much the same as if everyone had gone out and done some world class fencing...

Considering that they are fencing one touch epee this makes even more sense.

[MikeHarm]

Yep, I've fenced Pentathlons epee before. One of the things I learned was that they have to try to score right away and are really great on fleches, direct attacks and attacks on the blade partiular. Pentathlons will hit you harder and faster than anyone else you would fence but as long as your defenses and countertime are solid and you don't panic you should do good. They seem like they'd be excellent for just running you into the ground but the ones I've seen didn't seem to have the patience for it.

One of the ladies I fenced who flew in from Texas to fence I did an invite to draw her into going for the foot. She went for it and I got the touch (and won our match), but drilled me so hard that my foot still ached from it a year later. Also that stuff about ripping the reels apart on fleches I believe it 100% that that would happen with them, they can really fly when they get moving, its fun to watch.

[alexmb]

and then there is of course the famous "pentathlete's parry"...