Flicking-Gender and weapon

[mrbiggs]

I'm at about the same level in foil and epee. I know how to do flicks, and I can do them in practice, I'm just not confidant enough to use them in tournaments yet. Maybe in a month.

The Dan Kellner comment is interesting, as I know several foilists who are nowhere near his level (Ds and Es) who can flick very consistantly with the new timings. The main difference, I think, is that it's easier to get into distance and have a flick land flat with the new timings, where during the old timings, jumping into distance against a flick would be suicide.. So fencers should obviously use them less, but 10% is pretty small. Does he mean that he finds it too difficult to flick, too risky to flick, or that straight attacks are simply a better choice now? (Or a combination of the three.)

[Loopus]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Um, if your flicks make you vulnerable to counter-attacks in either foil or epee, you're not doing 'em right.

Unless you've discovered some way to flick without winding up, you're going to be exposing part of your lower arm or wrist every time you flick. If you're faster than your opponent's reaction time, or your opponent lacks the point control to hit what you've exposed, or you've gotten his blade safely out of the way, fine. But in épée, I think, flicking nearly always involves making yourself vulnerable for a split second. That's not to say it's never a good thing to do, of course. As I said above, it's not the reason I don't flick.

In foil, on the other hand, you are protected by right of way so vulnerabilities caused by the flick windup don't really matter.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Loopus

Unless you've discovered some way to flick without winding up, you're going to be exposing part of your lower arm or wrist every time you flick.

If you're winding up, you are doing the epee flick wrong.

[Loopus]

Originally Posted by achilleus

If you're winding up, you are doing the epee flick wrong.

Alright, educate me. How do you flick without winding up? By "winding up" I just mean pulling the arm or wrist back in order to throw the point.

[Araznal]

Originally Posted by SmokeyTheCat263

To all my fellow foilists -
As Dan Kellner explains in his post-Cuba interview:

"I see too many young fencers trying to 'out fence' or 'out smart' the machine and refuse to stop flicking. I still flick every once in a while, but maybe only 10% of what I used to. I still see fencers who flick almost the same amount as before. This just doesn't make sense."

I always liked the way Dan said that. I flick very rarely and most of them are chest flicks.

What I find most interesting is that flicking is predominantly a male action. I always noticed this, but never heard a good explanation for why. I've also noticed the same thing for the fleche, which I rarely see executed by most female fencers. If any women want to respond to this observation, it would be appreciated.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Loopus

Alright, educate me. How do you flick without winding up? By "winding up" I just mean pulling the arm or wrist back in order to throw the point.

A basic wrist flick in epee can be done by just squeezing with the thumb and manipulators. No wrist/arm/shoulder involvement. No openings. Requres strong fingers.

Or, if you want to make a bigger flick, control their blade first

[Loopus]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

A basic wrist flick in epee can be done by just squeezing with the thumb and manipulators. No wrist/arm/shoulder involvement. No openings. Requres strong fingers.

Heh. I guess my fencing arm/fingers are so weak that I couldn't even fathom that this could be done.

Fair enough.

[rocky]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Does he mean that he finds it too difficult to flick, too risky to flick, or that straight attacks are simply a better choice now? (Or a combination of the three.)

Basically the last two — it's not worth flicking these days as anyone with half a brain will close distance, and then the flick wont register with these new boxes. Thus Dan, and a lot of other fencers, have switched to making slower, straight attacks as those actions still work.

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by Araznal

I always liked the way Dan said that. I flick very rarely and most of them are chest flicks.

What I find most interesting is that flicking is predominantly a male action. I always noticed this, but never heard a good explanation for why. I've also noticed the same thing for the fleche, which I rarely see executed by most female fencers. If any women want to respond to this observation, it would be appreciated.

Incidentally, I'm female and the fleche is my strongest (and most beloved) attack (I'm an epee fencer). I think the reason for the flick is strength--most men are strong enough to not perform the flick correctly, but can muscle their blades into bending enough to cause the touch either from the shoulder or the elbow or both. Because women (or even fencers in general for that matter) tend to think the flick happens because of strength rather than extreme coordination, they perhaps do not wish to try.
As for the fleche...let's face it, women fencers (especially epeeists and not so much sabre fencers) generally have poor ability to move: their upper bodies typically are unstable and their legs are not explosive or powerful. (Of course there are exceptions like Laurence, but I'm referring to people like French, Rubin, Hurley). The fleche is a riskier attack than a lunge; if executed with poor coordination and timing it's basically impaling yourself on your opponents' tip. Like the flick, most coaches don't teach the fleche to be surprising and efficient--then the fleche turns out to be something ressembling a dive head first into the opponents' abdomen, hopefully with the arm semi-extended. The fleche requires stronger footwork and better command of distance and timing because any error is egregious for the attacker...and since most women I see in the US prefer to poke each other at a bouncing standstill, that may be why it is seldom executed.

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Um, if your flicks make you vulnerable to counter-attacks in either foil or epee, you're not doing 'em right.

Shoot, that's half the reason I use them sometimes. I've found that a good flick is one of the best preparations I have found. People tend to make stupid attacks out of distance to try to get a counterattack, and then I take their blade and hit them. Usually, I can hit with the flick or take their blade often enough that my opponent's occasional hit to my vulnerable wrist doesn't bother me much.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Ok, this is a poll to see the demographics of flickers in the point weapons. State your reasons for or for not flicking.

I flick in EPEE. Only occasionally, normally to the wrist or as a preparation

[pigeonmeister]

I'm a male foilist who used to flick a lot under the new timings. I basically agree with Kellner, I havn't seen anybody win a DE relying on flicks in the way they used to, so fencing like you can still rely on them is suicide. The whole beauty of flicks is that, if you were strong and skilful enough, you could hit someone anywhere from any position or distance. Close distance flicks are a no-hoper now, and you can't bend the blade around the back as you could, you now have to get a 'fix' by having a high wrist. Yes flicks are still possible but 'touch' fencing is dead. I pretty much never attack with a flick anymore, but do find I can land 1 in 3 flick repostes. A counter attacking flick to a lefties chest can still work (depending on chest protector). The thing I can't get round is that I can pull off two identical actions, in my mind anyway, and I can't predict which one will land and why.The bottom line is that it is too risky now and much too annoying when you get hit by the remise.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Man-Sum

And everyone would know that you are trying to flick when your tip points up high or weapon-arm bends across your chest.

Unless, of course, you sometimes use countertime. Then they don't know which one you're trying.

[remise]

In epee, if someone exposes their wrist for that split second, I'll be right there to pick it off. If the flick does not expose the wrist, it usually ends up clanging off my bell guard. Afterwards, most fencers go into what I like to call a 'freeze-frame' mode after they execute the flick. They pause for a split second to see if their action has landed. That's when I'll attack, and 9 out of 10 times, I'll score.

[AllisonT]

With the old timings, I could flick to the belly since I am a lefty. After the new timings, I couldn't get it to stick.

[D'Art]

I'm a lefty foilist who flicks quite a lot (although not as much as I used to) and still land most of them, I've just had to change how and when I flick (most of mine are to chest/back shoulder as a broken time attack on my opponents' prep - although I still occasionally forget flicks to the back are stupid, then remember about 1/25th of a second too late )

[Mr Epee]

Looking at the foil portion of this poll:

Women are smarter than men... interesting.

Keep flicking, boys!

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Looking at the foil portion of this poll:

Women are smarter than men... interesting.

Keep flicking, boys!

Just because you still flick in foil doesn't mean that you are dumb - you are only dumb if you insist on keep on flicking in a way/timing that doesn't come up...

Even Dan Kellner still flicks occasionally

"I still flick every once in a while, but maybe only 10% of what I used to."

and I don't think he is dumb...

Boo

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Just because you still flick in foil doesn't mean that you are dumb - you are only dumb if you insist on keep on flicking in a way/timing that doesn't come up...

Even Dan Kellner still flicks occasionally
and I don't think he is dumb...

Boo

FYI - X being smarter than Y - doesn't mean that Y is dumb.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

FYI - X being smarter than Y - doesn't mean that Y is dumb.

Ok, true

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Women are smarter than men... interesting.

You have only just noticed...?

Boo