ACL Tear

[cameroncrazy323]

3-4 weeks ago I tore my ACL and meniscus while cross training. I've been doing pt and will have surgery at Christmas because I go to college soon. My doctor tells me that I will be able to do activities up until my surgery but in moderation. Ive heard estimates from my doctor and one of my fencing coaches that I wont be able to fence competitively from 10 months to a year following surgery. I was wondering if anyone else has done this and what they went through with the time before surgery, with surgery, and with rehab (especially how long it took you to get back to 100%). Right now im trying to get to where I can take lessons and possibly a bout or two (not sure about that though).

[ThatReallyHurt]

Hey cc323 - I'm sorry to hear about your injury.

One of my coaches tore an ACL... no fencing at all until after the doctor gives a green light. No sense in trying to do something you love when you shouldn't and then ending up trying to do something you love, but can't.

I hope you heal quickly and get back on your feet soon!

[fatfencer]

What your doctor told you is absolutely false from all the WEB MD and other stuff I've read. The ACL complicates things but there are ways to speed up healing such that the general prognosis is 14-20 weeks.

Generally they want you to be gradually more and more mobile by the end of the 15th week. The next 5 weeks is strength training to get that leg up to par.

Get a full liver and kidney cleanse; if yu want that ligament to heal and fast then your going to load up on a truckload of HYDRAJOINT, a liquid glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM supplement. OF all the ones I researched for my meniscal tear it was the most bang for the buck and had the most research on bioavailability behind it. Good stuff. Knee feels better.

That stuff and whey proteins as well as all the gelatin from Jello and ends of chicken bones and cow bones you can stomach will help that to heal quick.

But it tends to load up the kidneys and liver with a lot of protein. Thats why you cleanse first. It also helps in vitamin absorbtion, though thats mainly the large intestine.

Look at this as a time to take stock of your physical health. Cut out bad cholesterol COMPLETELY as it plugs the tiny capillaries that help the meniscus and ACL heal. No red meat. Lots of veggies but as separate as possible from the gelatin... the gelatin will bond with the roughage and pass rather than be absorbed.

Also, you need to take lots of multivitamins.

Most of all I HIGHLY recommend you go see a qualified acupuncturist and herbalist. They can dial in a lot of healing to your knee and quickly too. They will also give you a package of herbs to make into a broth. [u]That more than anything will heal your knee quickly.
Hockey players, football players and so on wear knee braces prophylactically
Given the light titanium frames you should be able to and easily... even after you heal completely. Psychologically it may take longer thatn 20 weeks to feel that your leg is better. The brace will help with that.


Lots of love bro. I feel for ya and due to my meniscus... Im sorta in the same boat. Dont let it get you down though. Dont let your mind play tricks on ya and get you depressed. THAT will keep you away from fencing much longer than even an ACL tear.

[cameroncrazy323]

I understand what your saying FF but my doctor said my torn meniscus makes the rehab take so long. I will be reconstructing my acl and repairing my meniscus in the same surgery. From what I understand repairing the meniscus means longer rehab than just taking it out, but it also means I will not have arthritis when I'm like 20-30.

[R. Exnicios]

Listen to your Doctor! No two injuries are the same. I went through this last year. I actually had a ruptured ACL (ie it tore completly out of the bone) as well as some other damage to the knee.

How long before you are game ready depends on what you have done, how long you want it to last and if you want to where a brace.

Get a 2nd opinion. See a sports medicine doctor and a top notch Physical Theropist and trainer. Do not be tempted to go back too soon.

I did PT 3 days a week for 9 months to get back to 90 %
The first hurdle is range of motion. then balance and coordination and then stregnth and endorance and lastly prevention (ie how to keep it from happening again)

There have been several threads on knee injuries and ACL problems. There are also plenty of web sites out there.

Good luck

Cheers

R

[Mr Epee]

Cameron...

PM me with your personal contact information, and I will put you in touch with two good fencers who have had the same injury in the past 1-2 years... I know that they have had a very difficult time with recovery issues, and have been sharing information about their procedures and recovery...

[Mr Epee]

Fat Fencer,

I really don't want to be rude, but you might want to list your credentials/expertise before volunteering such explicit advice... If you are a medical professional then all the power to you. I, + many others, appreciate your detailed input.

[R. Exnicios]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Cameron...

PM me with your personal contact information, and I will put you in touch with two good fencers who have had the same injury in the past 1-2 years... I know that they have had a very difficult time with recovery issues, and have been sharing information about their procedures and recovery...

Hey - I guess that means I suck! Just kidding. I thought the timing of the post was funny

Get as much input as possible but get the best sports Doctor you can find (& afford) and have him do the repair.

Hang in there

cheers

R

[WhipLash]

eh...i have a physiotherapist here with me, who recently fully tore her acl. apparently it's possible to fence with that condition, esp if u fence epee, though not recommended. have to wear a guard though. the post surgery treatment takes 6-8 months and if you rush it your acl may be torn again. you are looking at lots of rehab to build up the muscles in the knee to compensate. PM me if u wan more info. most of this stuff is greek to me...i'm studying microbiology!

[broncofencer]

I recommend seeing a sport medicine doctor after your surgery maybe even before. A lot of doctors don't deal with sports injuries from that perspective so they give you a longer prognosis than may actually be called for. I have run into this a lot with my athletic injuries. Most doctors go by the book and thats not usually written with athletic injuries in mind. your recovery will be vastly differnt than a 65 year old who slipped in the driveway.

Even in pro sports an ACL usually ends the season so You probably won't be back this season. Sorry to hear about the injury though. Whatever you do don't rush back thats when problems occur just look at barry bonds as an example.

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Fat Fencer,

I really don't want to be rude, but you might want to list your credentials/expertise before volunteering such explicit advice... If you are a medical professional then all the power to you. I, + many others, appreciate your detailed input.

Just sharing what I know; I've been researching meniscal tears almost non stop for the last month in prep for my own surgery which will probably be just after miami nac.

That research doesnt just include WEB MD and just about every medical site relating to knee injury. But also what I'e been told by coaches, sports therapists and long conversations with specialist doctors in CA, NM and AZ.

It isnt the meniscus that takes a long time. its the ACL tear. If it were just meniscus, most physicians are sending you to sports therapy almost immediately for ROM and other therapies.

As far as the eating stuff well.. THAT is my speciality. After all I am FATfencer lol. Never trust a skinny cook.


I've broken more than my share of bones, sprained joints and stuff. Most of the times I've just gone to acupuncturists/herbalists. Most of those also do chiropractic care as well. Anyways Its always the same. Kidney and liver cleanse, herbs for rebuilding cartilage, lots of needles, massage, and more jello than any man should ever eat. The cleanse I recommend based on my own uses is the one in CURE for ALL DISEASE by Hulda Clark. Shes a bit weird but the cleanse works just as she suggests. She got it from an herbalist.

When i busted my collarbone my mother used to make me eat the ends of chicken bones, beef marrow, garlic, ginseng and gingko. Good stuff.

Here's a funny story. I was on my way to fence after work. and th work bathroom has a large mirror in front of the sink. So I did a nice slow lunge....that turned into the splits since i slipped on a water puddle. EEEk. That hurt! Guess I know what I'll be having for dinner.(Jello)

Fatfencer

[R. Exnicios]

The length of time for an ACL to heal depends, among other things, on how it is repaired.

Repaired, replaced, harvested ligament or donated and how it is attached etc.

My ACL was replaced and my knee rebuilt using an Achilles tendon from a donor and a couple of bone screws and a metal staple. I have no scars on my knee at all and I do not need any sort or brace.

I walked out of the hospital the same day (on crutches). and was on crutches for 3 months.

Good luck.

Cheers

R

[WhipLash]

well you are lucky to have a donor. over here most of the time its harvested from your own body...

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by R. Exnicios

Hey - I guess that means I suck! Just kidding. I thought the timing of the post was funny

cheers

R

Sorry, Richard, I wasn't trying to bust your chops.

I didn't see your post, because I was so disturbed by FatFencer's plan for speedy recovery. Which still worries me a little...

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Sorry, Richard, I wasn't trying to bust your chops.

I didn't see your post, because I was so disturbed by FatFencer's plan for speedy recovery. Which still worries me a little...

It worries me a lot. It sounds like very sketchy advice, particularly if his source for info isn't medical training, but internet research. It also sounds out of line with what I know about recovery time, particularly for a not-so-kind-on-the-knees sport like fencing.

[kalivor]

My girlfriend tore her ACL a few years ago.

She was back fencing with a torn ACL and a brace in two weeks. Eventually, she went in for surgery ... she started training again (lightly) after about 8 months(? -- she worked a lot on bladework while she was injured, and I'm having trouble remembering when she resumed footwork drills), and was back to competitive fencing after 10 months.

I was given to understand that this was better-than-normal (though still in the normal range), particularly for a woman, as the angle between the hip and the knee puts more pressure on the ACL for women than it does for men.

As for "100%", what do you mean? A surgically repaired knee will never be quite as good as one that never required surgery in the first place ...

[airathanas]

I have torn both my acls while fencing so take this to heart...

The last time I tore it was Jan 2003 and I was fencing in Novemeber 2003. I took a long time for my fencing to get back to "normal" and I could move at a good speed. I also had inflammation issues and had to take medicine to curb that. It is a long tedious recovery, but DO NOT PUSH IT!!! You can develop tendonitis and other major set backs can occur if you fence before the doctor tell you to. Follow your rehab correctly, stay motivated, go at a steedy pace and don't let people call you a gimp! You'll be back to fencing before you know it.

Best of luck! What I did to get me through was take sabre lessons without moving my feet. It helped a lot, mentally.

[fatfencer]

5 months may seem aggressive but I think mindset plays a big role. Some of the sports specific knee doctors and therapists I spoke to said that that was what to shoot for.

Knee science has also advanced alot and continues to do so. But hell. Call a doctor who specializes in sports medicine for the knee and ask. Call several. I did. What I found was a range of 4-9 months. I went back and made several follow up calls and found that the longer times were 'padding' because people inevitably pushed too early and not slowly and progressively.

The ones that also recommend acupuncture also seemed to have the faster healing times.

Finally, I know that people who do continue to workout in the gym: leg raises for the non surgery leg general weight training, etc. do tend to get better faster and also have less down time between complete healing and COMPETITIVE fencing. They arent wasting any time getting into cardio shape again.

They have this arm cycling thing for cardio for those who cant run or bike or treadmill at most gyms. You can still lift weights in cardio manner(circuit training). All of this will lessen the time between surgery and the strip. A healthy body heals faster. Period. If you laze around all fat-assed exercising your remote control arm then it will take AT LEAST 10 months.

As for any advice I gave earlier..hmm. let me see. Oh yes: 'eat jello, cartilage of chicken, lean diet, lots of vitamins and a herbal cleanse. Get acupuncture and herbals into your life. Exercise as much as you can.'

It certainly will help you heal faster, not to mention that the above things are just plain GOOD FOR YOU.

Lets not be too inane folks(Mr Epee, et al). None of anything I've said constitutes anything but the most general advice for healthy living with or without knee problems. It will help you get healthier faster than not following it IMHO.

I dont expect anyone to do anything I say. I do expect that you use your brains and call doctors, acupuncturists, dietitians, etc and get them all into the same room and develop a plan together to get healthy as fast as possible. Everything I've said is a spur to get people thinking along those lines.

I do expect that if you do the research honestly you will find that Im quite on the right track and about a great many things.

Read...then read again more carefully, THEN respond.

FAtfencer

Originally Posted by kalivor

My girlfriend tore her ACL a few years ago.

She was back fencing with a torn ACL and a brace in two weeks. Eventually, she went in for surgery ... she started training again (lightly) after about 8 months(? -- she worked a lot on bladework while she was injured, and I'm having trouble remembering when she resumed footwork drills), and was back to competitive fencing after 10 months.

I was given to understand that this was better-than-normal (though still in the normal range), particularly for a woman, as the angle between the hip and the knee puts more pressure on the ACL for women than it does for men.

As for "100%", what do you mean? A surgically repaired knee will never be quite as good as one that never required surgery in the first place ...

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

5 months may seem aggressive but I think mindset plays a big role. Some of the sports specific knee doctors and therapists I spoke to said that that was what to shoot for.

<big bit snipped>

Read...then read again more carefully, THEN respond.

Very well, I'll re-read this:

Just sharing what I know; I've been researching meniscal tears almost non stop for the last month in prep for my own surgery which will probably be just after miami nac.

In which you specifically state that you've been talking to these people about a different kind of injury!

Or should I re-read the place where you say you have no medical expertise?

You're speaking with a lot of confidence, and giving a lot of advice. I'm saying "watch out," because it's not advice that I'd tend to take. And of the dozen or so fencers I've met who've had surgery to repair their ACL, none of them came back at anything approaching five months. That's pretty much an unthinkable timespan for an ACL tear in fencing.

Exercise? Eat well? Work hard at rehab?

Well, clearly that's good advice which isn't really needed -- it's common sense. You sharing your experience with sprained joints and meniscal tear research? It puts you off the mark.

You HAVE to be in good shape and work hard to be back in 10 months. The fact that you suggest that a ten-month recovery is indicative of someone lazy and not doing rehab just shows how far off the mark you are.

[fatfencer]

Kalivor..

the original poster thought that the meniscal tear would keep him out longer than the ACL tear...which isnt necessarily true.

Yes my research began with meniscal tears but frankly theres so much interrelated reading and questions that I have asked over the years. This isnt my first martial sport. I've seen a few acls go in my life. Caused a great deal of them. God bless hockey and karate.

If you think 5months is innaccurate then I'd say one wasnt aggressive enough with treatment options. I think 10 months is a sign that people took their recovery very easy and under the care of a regular physician with no sports medicine background. Was that always the case? Probably not. But usually. I think.

Based on my experience with herbalists and acupuncturists they can shave 2 to 4 months off the 10 months timeframe...if they are consulted prior to surgery as well as during and after. I for one will be consulting a herbalist and an acupuncturist. Hell I'll be seeking out qigong too. Whatever it takes.

I never said I had any medical background other than my experiences; in fact my recent postings were in response to MR Epee telling me I was too medical in my posts and had no credentials.

My response is simple... just sharing what I know. IF I'm wrong fine don't listen to me. I never said anyone HAD to. But between you me and the fencepost I'd look into it. Im desperately trying to find ways to shave time without endangering the post surgery results, not just for my own sake, but for the sake of all fencers. Who knows. I may stumble on to something another fencer maybe able to grab a hold of and use. I hope so. 10 months is toooooo long. I wouldnt wish that on someone I despised.

Incidentally I do know someone who used a brace to help him fence after ACl surgery in 6.5 months and I know him enough to know he didnt do any alternative modalities. But he had really strong legs and drank alot of beer. Is that alternative? Drinking beer? Hmm...only if it works I think.


The simple point is most people dont during their healing time consult with alternative therapies in conjunction with more standard Western Procedures.

If you do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result well thats pretty insane. But even if you didnt consult herbalists and acupuncturists... 10 months seems long. Exnicios had BOTH knees done remember. I doubt it would have taken him that long if it were the one knee.

But in Camerons case its not just the ACL its the meniscus too which in and of itself can make one feel pretty gimpy. Having both may take longer than having one or the other. But there are so many variables.

As far as telling me that saying eat well exercise well, etc is useless advice. Hmm.

LEt me see. WHat use have you been on this thread? At least I did some research on the subject... talked to doctors, researched the web. What did you do on this thread? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Other than sharing info about your gal pal...nothing.

Best of luck to you... but Im glad I dont live in Canada. Bad beer, bad weather and Bryan Adams have dealt you a bad blow. Mayhaps I should research nootropics? You know you dont live in a real country anyways....bwahahahah

If you moved to Hawaii mebbe you might reverse some of that. But thats an assertion no one would believe.... regardless of what website I got it from.

Fatfencer

PS: It also depends how they do the surgery and where they get the ligament from. I think people recover sufficiently enough to fence faster with ligaments from cadavers. That way the body doesnt split up its healing reserves. Also you have to be careful. someone else on this thread mentioned possible rejection of the tissue. EEK!

All in all I wish cameron the best. Regardless of how flawed this thread has become. I do hope he finds the most aggressive sports doctors he can afford and shaves as much time off as possible. Being away from fencing sucks.