08-05-2005, 02:23 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,994
| The Two Epeeists
I did foil for many years before getting into epee. Now I basically only do epee. I find that the folks who are proficient in foil are almost always better at epee than the folks who just go straight into epee. I feel that ROW very much transfers to epee and I think that really good epee looks a lot like really good foil.
A lot of the epeeist who never learned foil tend to just counter attack everything no matter what. I only counter attack when I can tell that my opponent is either not going to hit because his point is off or if I am sure that I am way ahead of him.
I really think that it is important to start with foil. Most of the people who who complain about ROW and go staight to epee are too dumb to understand ROW. I know fencers who have been doing foil for over 10 years and still don't understand ROW.
Once you have mastered ROW it becomes your best friend. It took me 8 months of getting my @ss kicked everyday to really understand ROW. | 
|  | | And now for this message... |
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08-05-2005, 02:45 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: calgary,ab,canada
Posts: 2,413
| i agree, i started in foil for several months then did both for a while longer. now i do only as much foil as i have to.
actually, good epee looks like good classical foil..  | |
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08-05-2005, 03:15 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 492
| What's so bloody hard about ROW?
1) We fence weapon A according to a set of rules
2) Those rules say an attack is performed thusly (insert definition for weapon/style usually having something to do with the weapon threatening an accepted valid target.)
3) You may only attack if the guy you are attacking has not established their attack first (see (2) for definition of an attack).
4) If you do want to attck that guy, and they established their attack first, then you must a) deviate their blade so that it is no longer threatening your valid target area b) Only then may you proceed and execute an appropriate attacking action (see (2) for definition of an attack) yourself.
Simple.   
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"Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un músico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga
"If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes." | |
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08-05-2005, 03:22 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Athos FC ~)---------- San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,244
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by ReverseLunge I did foil for many years before getting into epee. Now I basically only do epee. I find that the folks who are proficient in foil are almost always better at epee than the folks who just go straight into epee. I feel that ROW very much transfers to epee and I think that really good epee looks a lot like really good foil.
A lot of the epeeist who never learned foil tend to just counter attack everything no matter what. I only counter attack when I can tell that my opponent is either not going to hit because his point is off or if I am sure that I am way ahead of him.
I really think that it is important to start with foil. Most of the people who who complain about ROW and go staight to epee are too dumb to understand ROW. I know fencers who have been doing foil for over 10 years and still don't understand ROW.
Once you have mastered ROW it becomes your best friend. It took me 8 months of getting my @ss kicked everyday to really understand ROW. | I agree completely. It is very common for foilists to start doing epee and do very well, but I've never seen an epeeist that started doing foil and did well. They usually just counter-attack a lot and soon quit foil and go back to only epee when they become frustrated and are unable to do well.
In the old days, fencing masters would ALWAYS start new fencers on foil and only after at least a year or two would they be allowed to do epee or sabre. This was not because the fencing masters of the time were stupid or hated epee/sabre, but because they knew that what you learn in foil is the basis for good fencing in all weapons. This is still the case today.
I believe if all epeeists today still had to do foil for a significant period before moving to epee, we'd see a lot better epee fencing, at least in the lower levels up through national levels.
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08-05-2005, 03:30 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,099
| If I had to fence foil for a year or two, I would probably have quit fencing a long time ago. | |
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08-05-2005, 03:32 PM
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#6 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: greece
Posts: 3,362
| I disagree.
Why? I'm proof. I had a day of foil, and then started epee with a pistol grip. I had a good coach who taught me how to fence correctly. I've done OK in epee.
I occasionally pick up a foil at tournaments, never having had a lesson, and have won open events.
A good coach teaches a person how to fence correctly regardless of the weapon or grip they start with.
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We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
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08-05-2005, 03:36 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Athos FC ~)---------- San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,244
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by achilleus I disagree. | With what?
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08-05-2005, 03:38 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jyväskylä
Posts: 3,845
| The major problem is a lack of proper epee coaches...
There are probably only 20 capable ones in the US, and this is an improvement.
There are even fewer coaches capable of coaching to the higher levels.
Achilleus was very lucky to find a good coach from the beginning.
People mistake epee for being simple, and don't properly understand the extremely complex nuances that the weapon presents. Not having a good system/game in place, and well developed, leaves fencers (even good ones) confused and lost at times... cross-over foilists are already working from a defined system... even it's from another weapon.
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08-05-2005, 03:39 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: calgary,ab,canada
Posts: 2,413
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by achilleus I disagree.
Why? I'm proof. I had a day of foil, and then started epee with a pistol grip. I had a good coach who taught me how to fence correctly. I've done OK in epee.
I occasionally pick up a foil at tournaments, never having had a lesson, and have won open events.
A good coach teaches a person how to fence correctly regardless of the weapon or grip they start with. | we're talking about typical scerarios here... | |
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08-05-2005, 03:42 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 492
| Not to be mean, but I find the 'I would have quit if I had to do X' argument rather childish. Unfortunately, a lot of coaches who rely on fencing to support them have pandered to this, and I believe that it has been at a cost to our sport.
Personally, I consider it to be a self-weeding system. Those with the dedication stay, those that don't, don't. I don't teach fencing for the money although, even though our club prices are LOW, I could probably live on fencing alone if I made it my full time occupation. I teach fencing because I love it and I want to share it with others. If they don't want what I have to teach, that's fine. I have plenty of other students who are willing to put in the time and effort.
__________________
"Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un músico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga
"If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes." | |
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08-05-2005, 03:42 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: calgary,ab,canada
Posts: 2,413
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Mr Epee People mistake epee for being simple, and don't properly understand the extremely complex nuances that the weapon presents. Not having a good system/game in place, and well developed, leaves fencers (even good ones) confused and lost at times... cross-over foilists are already working from a defined system... even it's from another weapon. | i agree...but you have to work with what you've got. most of us aren't lucky enough to have worked with one of those 20 coaches so we have to draw from our "foil experiences" to help to make sense out of epee. | |
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08-05-2005, 03:43 PM
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#12 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: greece
Posts: 3,362
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by OROD With what?
. | What? Is the air so clean in Cen Cal that you're on a natural high and totally lost the thread of the discussion?
__________________
We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
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08-05-2005, 03:44 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 492
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Mr Epee People mistake epee for being simple, and don't properly understand the extremely complex nuances that the weapon presents. Not having a good system/game in place, and well developed, leaves fencers (even good ones) confused and lost at times... cross-over foilists are already working from a defined system... even it's from another weapon. | I completely agree... epee is too often dismissed as being 'simple' when it is anything but.
__________________
"Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un músico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga
"If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes." | |
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08-05-2005, 03:45 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: calgary,ab,canada
Posts: 2,413
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by cfaustus Not to be mean, but I find the 'I would have quit if I had to do X' argument rather childish. | its a matter of enjoyment. if i found myself in a position where i had to choose either sabre fencing or no fencing at all, i'm pretty sure i'd choose no fencing at all. i simply don't enjoy sabre and cannot make sense out of it. | |
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08-05-2005, 03:47 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jyväskylä
Posts: 3,845
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by achilleus What? Is the air so clean in Cen Cal that you're on a natural high and totally lost the thread of the discussion? | Ach,
play nice... there had already been 6 posts in this thread before he got lost. Six is totally more than one handful. It could have happened to anyone.
CFaustus,
please stop picking the ball up and placing it back on the tee
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Quit touchin' me, ya freak
F.Net Rule #1: E. L. E. (everybody love everybody)
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08-05-2005, 03:50 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Athos FC ~)---------- San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,244
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by achilleus What? Is the air so clean in Cen Cal that you're on a natural high and totally lost the thread of the discussion? | There were 5 posts before yours. Do you mean to say you disagreed with everything that was said in those 5 posts? In my post alone I made several different statements, including saying that if epeeists started in foil that we'd see better epee fencing up through the national levels. Then, you site yourself as an example of why I might be wrong. Wow, are you really suggesting that you alone showing up to a tournament will single-handedly increase the level of fencing throughout the country?
Amazing!
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08-05-2005, 03:50 PM
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#17 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: greece
Posts: 3,362
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Mr Epee The major problem is a lack of proper epee coaches...
There are probably only 20 capable ones in the US, and this is an improvement.
There are even fewer coaches capable of coaching to the higher levels.
Achilleus was very lucky to find a good coach from the beginning.
People mistake epee for being simple, and don't properly understand the extremely complex nuances that the weapon presents. Not having a good system/game in place, and well developed, leaves fencers (even good ones) confused and lost at times... cross-over foilists are already working from a defined system... even it's from another weapon. | I agree with what you're saying, however I don't think it's necessarily an epee specific problem. I mean, how many great coaches in all weapons, does the US have? Epee had the fewest until recently, but I started fencing in a place where the best coaches were epee coaches. If I had started in a place where the best coaches were foil coaches, I have no doubt that my fencing career would be quite different.
I consider myself very lucky to have started with a good coach regardless of the weapon.
__________________
We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
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08-05-2005, 03:50 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Under the sea
Posts: 2,735
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Mr Epee People mistake epee for being simple, and don't properly understand the extremely complex nuances that the weapon presents. | That's true when anybody looks at one of the weapons they don't normally fence, though I've not got a clue what the nuances are in sabre
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I'm not grumpy - I suffer from stupidity rage
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08-05-2005, 03:50 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 492
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Mr Epee CFaustus,
please stop picking the ball up and placing it back on the tee | LOL 
I'm sorry, that was sort of a pointless post wasn't it... I think I was just in such shock that I was in complete agreement with one of your posts, that pro forma I felt compelled to complement you by saying SOMETHING!
__________________
"Si tu no sabes todas las acciones es como si un músico no supiera tocar todas las notas." - Fernando Chiriboga
"If you do not know all the actions it is like a musician who does not know all the notes." | |
| | |
08-05-2005, 03:54 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,099
| I say I would have quit as an illustration of how much I hate foil. Now, I could fence sabre all day long and never grow tired of it, but I absolutely detest foil. I don't see why people think that the basics must be taught with foil. If the same principles that are applied in foil can be applied to other weapons, than they can be taught with other weapons as well. I don't think that simply because classically fencers are trained with a foil first is a valid argument as to why it should be done so today. It isn't like you just take your bad foil fencers and stick them in the other two weapons.
And I completely agree with what glowstick said, however mine applies to foil instead of sabre. | |
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