The Two Epeeists

[Djej]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Ah, I see that kalivor beat me to it!

But having just looked it up, I was talking about the parry to take back RoW, that's what's a waste of time in epée, the straight arm is of course the same.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Djej

I can beat, but I don't think I've used that to any effect even once yet(unless it's for intimidation, which works on blokes for some reason). I did learn my foil in England, and the beating was supposed to give us RoW. But as I say, it was a long time ago. I do know that during my first epée lesson everyone was on the floor laughing, and the MA was groaning aloud at the noise coming from my area of the room.

I think that from what I'm reading above is that in foil, you were trained to make a beat parry and riposte, and this isn't proving to be useful in epée.

While it's true that making a beat parry and riposte to the body is usually going to result in a double hit at best in epée, making a beat and a "riposte" to the hand can be effective. The difference is the distance the action is done at, and how quickly the distance is changing. I've met some epée that were very good at turning this action into a Parthian shot while leaving the space in the face of a strong attack.

I once got into an argument about whether this was a "parry riposte" or a "counter-attack with beat". No matter WHAT language says, the idea is the same: remove the point and score to the closest target.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Djej

But having just looked it up, I was talking about the parry to take back RoW, that's what's a waste of time in epée, the straight arm is of course the same.

Ah, I see. In epée, without conventions, of course the parry doesn't have any bearing on RoW. But there is a place in epée for all the variations of parries: beating, blocking, or cedeing.

[Djej]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I think that from what I'm reading above is that in foil, you were trained to make a beat parry and riposte, and this isn't proving to be useful in epée.

While it's true that making a beat parry and riposte to the body is usually going to result in a double hit at best in epée, making a beat and a "riposte" to the hand can be effective. The difference is the distance the action is done at, and how quickly the distance is changing. I've met some epée that were very good at turning this action into a Parthian shot while leaving the space in the face of a strong attack.

I once got into an argument about whether this was a "parry riposte" or a "counter-attack with beat". No matter WHAT language says, the idea is the same: remove the point and score to the closest target.

I think that what I was trained to do was to take back RoW from an attack with a beat. As I said above, I wasn't talking about the straight arm, I was talking about the obligatory parry.


"The difference is the distance the action is done at, and how quickly the distance is changing."

This is the main difference for me. I turned up ready to do acres of fancy blade work, and what we actually do is acres of fancy footwork.


My memory of foil is that it mainly happens where the two blades cross, but that epée mainly happens in the way the space between the two fencers changes.


"Riposte" just means "counter-attack". The beat isn't considered to be a parry in French fencing, but rather a "defensive action" made "in order to prepare an attack". So I'd say "counter-attack with beat" is great, but that it should be "battement, riposte".

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Djej

I think that what I was trained to do was to take back RoW from an attack with a beat. As I said above, I wasn't talking about the straight arm, I was talking about the obligatory parry.

The concept of a beat-parry is one of the specific varieties of "foil parries" that give epeeists such a hard time because it relies on "sheltering in RoW". Basically, you take RoW with the beat by removing the tip from target and carry on regardless of the counter-time action. The specific mechanics of a beat type foil parry are to engage the blade sharply and at range, then bounce off and hit the target, ignoring the oncoming remise. Many coaches teach this for foil because it is faster and easier to do a beat-parry then it is to do a parry with opposition and the rules of convention give you enough slack in your defense to get away with it.

In epee, this doesn't make a lot of sense and your "beat parry" ends up either being a proper "beat, counter-attack" (which actually removes the threat of the opponent's tip while you counter-attack) or a mal-parre that lets the tip slide in regardless. If it does, you get the double touch in the best case, locked out with the stop hit in the worst.

Lots of bad habits can be taught by foil to epee and sabre fencers.

But...

Foil parries with opposition are just as useful to beginner and mid-level foilists. Especially so with the new timings. AND, the concept of parry first, then riposte works just as well in epee as it does in foil and sabre. Convention has a logic in epee too.

I still come back to the notion that classical foil, fenced dry and with french grips, imparts some invaluable initial training. The logic of teaching a beginning student to hit a big damn target as a first instinct (body) and to understand the give and take of fencing is invaluable. It simplifies the instruction and slows the game down enough to make things clear to the student while building balance and good musculature. The mechanics of good classical foil gives the student a solid foundation upon which to build the pillars of epee and sabre skill. It's like taking Ballet to make yourself a better Hip Hop dancer. Or dressage to make yourself a better Western rider.

What it doesn't do is anything more. This training can not be carried on too long or the nuance of successful classical foil becomes an impediment to successful sport foil, epee and sabre. And there is a certain amount of retooling that will have to be done when the specialist weapon is finally determined. If you are certain of the destination weapon, starting in it is always the wisest course of action for competitive success though you will sacrifice understanding the material for merely training its execution.

Hope this helps.

James.

[Djej]

Originally Posted by jBirch

The concept of a beat-parry is one of the specific varieties of "foil parries" that give epeeists such a hard time because it relies on "sheltering in RoW". Basically, you take RoW with the beat by removing the tip from target and carry on regardless of the counter-time action.

I think this is what is called a "parade du tac", which my manual says "isn't done in epée"... because the distance is too great and you can't remove the point long enough to hit, unless as you say you do it on the hand (which I shall try...). I discussed this with a friend (whom you'll be seeing in Tampa), and he said he liked ex-foilists because you get them while they sub-consciously think they have the priority.

I still come back to the notion that classical foil, fenced dry and with french grips, imparts some invaluable initial training. The logic of teaching a beginning student to hit a big damn target as a first instinct (body) and to understand the give and take of fencing is invaluable. It simplifies the instruction and slows the game down enough to make things clear to the student while building balance and good musculature. The mechanics of good classical foil gives the student a solid foundation upon which to build the pillars of epee and sabre skill. It's like taking Ballet to make yourself a better Hip Hop dancer. Or dressage to make yourself a better Western rider.

I tend to agree with you on this, I'm a ballet dancer. However building a career in Contemporary involved totally re-training myself. I also was always mediocre in improvisation which isn't taught in ballet, i was always vulnerable to dancers half my level who had just done Contemporary. I just about got good when I retired ... no matter, I'm applying that knowlege to epée now.

Though I don't think it's so much that it makes you better at hip hop. In fact it will make it slower for you learn REALLY good hip hop. But it means you can learn anything. If you do ballet you can learn hip hop. If you just do hip hop you won't be able to do ballet. The point with classical fencing, if you do it you can go on to any other kind of fencing from sabre to theatre. And flicks and what ever else people invent in 15 years time.

And there is a certain amount of retooling that will have to be done when the specialist weapon is finally determined. If you are certain of the destination weapon, starting in it is always the wisest course of action for competitive success though you will sacrifice understanding the material for merely training its execution.

Hope this helps.

James.

Yep. I also think it depends on age. I doubt very much I shall change weapons at my age. I like the mentality of epée (I also think its a long distance weapon), foil is more based on speed(it's a sprinters' weapon), at my age I don't want to have to bother with that. I shall certainly do some foil later on, and probably some sabre too, but at my age I don't need to be able to change weapons at the drop of a hat.

[Feraud]

I’ve seen many good foilists change weapons and go on to be even better epee fencers. Or good foil fencers try epee occasionally and do very well at it.
Can’t say I’ve ever seen the reverse be true. That’s only my personal experience.