The Two Epeeists

[scrapinpeg]

Which beautiful foil bouts are these? The ones I've watched look like two fencers move at each other, then scrum lightly (and often sloppily) with blades, resulting in a white light or two and no points; repeat, and hope for a green or red light. Hard to tell what's going on, and it doesn't look all that aesthetic.


Epee bouts, on the other hand, are elegant games of high-speed cat-and-mouse -- with testing, probing, mind games and a great deal of energy all readily apparent to the spectator.

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

Sorry Glowstix, I don't see that. I think epee is much more intriguing to fence, but watching is a whole different matter. Though epee is more simple for spectators to understand, they are always more impressed with the beauty of foil bouts.

Sorry, didn't realize I'd be starting a new page. This is what I was responding to.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

It is perfectly ok to start these youngsters out with foils, because they are lighter and easier to control, but teaching epee parries, ripostes, filos etc...

Epees are heavier and more difficult to manuver properly.

That is, until you teach the "youngsters" with pistol grips. Then your whole argument falls apart. I think French grips should be used until the child has started to develop, say around 12/14 years old.

There are size 2 and 0 blades, available for epee, you can use them. There are also light aluminum (or some other fancy metal) epee guards. You can also use them.

I can understand a multi weapon (or a foil) coach who will start their students with foil, but IMO, between the ages of 7-9, it's Ok to start with epee, with the appropriate equipment.

Using foils to fence epee is another solution, but it doesn't really matter at this point, I agree.

IMO, starting 5-6 year olds into "real" fencing doesn't really buy anyone anything, unless in some odd cases. It's better to start fencing around 7 or 8 years old. Anytime younger than that is just "child's play".

[veeco]

Originally Posted by glowstix

btw, i think we're getting the argument screwed up. i don't think anyone is really saying that fencing foil first is necessarily better (at least i'm not), its that fencing foil first makes for easier transitions into the two other weapons since it has elements that are common to the other two while the other two weapons can't make that claim.

sure, if you fence foil first then go to EPEE you'll have to ingrain the EPEE nuances but there are certain fundamentals that will already be in place. at the same time, these same fundamentals can be taught starting in EPEE as well. there's no doubt that starting in a weapon with good coaching and staying in that weapon is the best scenario BUT, if one must make a transition, then i think that transitioning FROM foil is easier than transitioning TO foil.

How about the fact that both epee and saber have a 3 dimensional target (hand, -feet-, arms) while foil doesn't?

As you can see, it's not as quite white and black as you think it is. There are lot of similarities between all weapons, not just between foil and (epee, sabre). Starting with foil is a common use kind of thing that has been done for a long time, but it doesn't necessarily makes sense. IMO, it's as possible and as easy to transition from any one weapon to the other 2, provided you got good coaching in the first place.

Granted, it's just my personal opinion and I don't have any scientific ways of measuring this, but I think that someone who started with epee and got proper coaching would be able to transition to foil as easily as the same person who started in foil with proper coaching would be able to transition to epee.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by veeco

How about the fact that both epee and saber have a 3 dimensional target (hand, -feet-, arms) while foil doesn't?

Sure it does! Back, shoulder, belly, chest, flank, flick, thrust. It just doesn't have the same range of distance as sabre and epee. *grin*

As you can see, it's not as quite white and black as you think it is. There are lot of similarities between all weapons, not just between foil and (epee, sabre). Starting with foil is a common use kind of thing that has been done for a long time, but it doesn't necessarily makes sense. IMO, it's as possible and as easy to transition from any one weapon to the other 2, provided you got good coaching in the first place.

I don't know if I qualify as a "good coach", but in my experience, sabreurs can't make the transition to foil/epee as easily as foilists can make the transition to sabre. Same with epee and sabre. In fact, epee to either weapon is a HUGE can of worms with RoW, fleches and off target.

You pretty much need to start at scratch going from epee to sabre or foil and pretty much start at scratch going from sabre to epee. The easist "unorthodox" transition I've seen has been sabre to foil. I'm sure that the flick originated with just such a transition.

Granted, this is under the old timings and only applies to people who have been fencing for under a year or so. If you get too specific to foil then you're going to lose any advantage to starting it first and you would have been better off starting in the weapon the student wound up specialising in (if you can predict what that will be accurately enough).

I'm hoping that the transition from foil to epee and epee to foil will be easier under the new timings as the skills acquired in epee will be of great use when you need to control the blade. The neat thing (in my mind) about the new timings is that this will hopefully return foil to a great general introductory weapon rather then just a mediocre one.

Hope this helps.

James.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

Epee bouts, on the other hand, are elegant games of high-speed cat-and-mouse -- with testing, probing, mind games and a great deal of energy all readily apparent to the spectator.

"Which bouts are these?"

Honestly, guys, I think it's the blind men and the elephant yet again.

I agree with your assessment of foil bouts, but your view of epee is seriously colored by your preference. I seldom see any of what you mention in an epee bout, except for those at the very highest levels. I see lengthy periods of dull inactivity or bouncy-bouncy, jabbity-jabbity at the arm, eventually an attempt to control the opponent's blade while simultaneously trying to get him to run onto a point, in conjunction with some very bizarre body positioning. And then two lights.

Now a sabre bout, OTOH---THERE is some serious dash and flair!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by jBirch

sabreurs can't make the transition to foil/epee as easily as foilists can make the transition to sabre.

Well, naturally! The former are scarce as hen's teeth. What self-respecting sabre fencer would ever switch to foil or epee? Unless they just get too old for sabre, that is.


But seriously, though I don't have a coaching perspective I have both watched and fenced a lot of people who started various ways over the years, and watched a lot of people taking lessons, and I still can't see what sort of general fencing skill one can learn better or faster with a foil in hand than with a sabre or epee...

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

"Which bouts are these?"

Now a sabre bout, OTOH---THERE is some serious dash and flair!

My views of sabre are colored by my pre and post electric sabre fencing. Two guys fleching at each other on the command "fence" followed by four judges hands up or two lights followed by 10-15 minutes of arguing with the ref. By both fencers.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I still can't see what sort of general fencing skill one can learn better or faster with a foil in hand than with a sabre or epee...

How to fence foil........

We teach foil to beginners at my club because we have enough foils for it. I'd like to try to teach epee or sabre first, but it would mean a capital outlay of about $1000 or more. Anybody want to contribute?

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

But seriously, though I don't have a coaching perspective I have both watched and fenced a lot of people who started various ways over the years, and watched a lot of people taking lessons, and I still can't see what sort of general fencing skill one can learn better or faster with a foil in hand than with a sabre or epee...

The ability to fence *either* sabre *or* epee, of course!

I mean, really, if you have a fencer who is dead set on epee and you teach them foil first, they've a good chance to make a half-decent sabreur if you can get them to try it. And really, aren't we all just trying to make epeeists see the light?

James.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

"Which bouts are these?"

Honestly, guys, I think it's the blind men and the elephant yet again.

I agree with your assessment of foil bouts, but your view of epee is seriously colored by your preference. I seldom see any of what you mention in an epee bout, except for those at the very highest levels. I see lengthy periods of dull inactivity or bouncy-bouncy, jabbity-jabbity at the arm, eventually an attempt to control the opponent's blade while simultaneously trying to get him to run onto a point, in conjunction with some very bizarre body positioning. And then two lights.

Now a sabre bout, OTOH---THERE is some serious dash and flair!

Unfortunately, in the US, this is true of all weapons. Bad foil, sabre, and epee look like exactly what they are, which is to say bad. Sure, they have their differences, epee looking like what you mentioned above.

Then again the majority of sabre looks like two people rushing into each other, and foil, well, bad foil has so many off targets...

With lower level fencers, it's hard to see any thought, set up, or meaningful actions. So, while you may see the epee you describe above, it just means that the epee fencing you are seeing isn't very good. I mean, I was mesmerized wacthing Montano in the OG, but watching many of the local sabre guys is painful.

[mlr2fence]

Eliminate all of the technical/ROW mumbo-jumbo from this discussion and it boils down to the simple fact that if a fencer switches weapons they have already spent 'X' amount of time as a fencer. This time in the sport certainly helps in achieving a successful switch since they already learned footwork, achieved arm strength and blade control, gained an understanding of the sport, etc.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by jBirch

And really, aren't we all just trying to make epeeists see the light?

James, we are already in the light...

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Well think about it, learning RoW won't hurt you at all. It's basically learning when to parry and when to stick your arm out and duck for cover. I'd say that most high level eepeists probably don't think it helps overly but then again, most people aren't super high level fencers.

[Djej]

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

Well think about it, learning RoW won't hurt you at all. It's basically learning when to parry and when to stick your arm out and duck for cover. I'd say that most high level eepeists probably don't think it helps overly but then again, most people aren't super high level fencers.

What people don't realise is that RoW has absolutely no use in epée. In epée one only parries real attacks, ie ones that are meant to touch. Parrying false ones are a waste of time. They also invite a dérobement and a hit. I use feintes all the time. I love it when the person parries and then tchack, I remove my blade and get them from underneath.

I started foil, from that I still have the really bad habit of parrying all the time. It gets me in no end of trouble. I lost my last bout in competition because of it. In epée you're better off ceding (I don't know what the English term is), the distance epée fencers are making it practically impossible to parry by battement like in foil and then getting the counter attack in. People just cede and do an opposition on you before you get anywhere.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Originally Posted by broncofencer

As many have said I feel the idea of starting with foil is now outdated. be it the flick or the rule changes competitve modern foil is very different from classical foil. A lot of what used to be taught in foil is no longer applicable. I myself teach a much more classical linear foil style which tends to lend itself better to epee than foil sucess. I too have seen foilist struggle with the minor subtleties of epee. the biggest being distance and form control.

So basiclly while I still teach foil first I think I could start with either foil or epee and get the same results. Of course with the new timings maybe I would get better results since I don't teach the flick.

Should also point out that not every classical master advised starting with foil. I don't have the quote in front of me, but JJ Renaud stated that you had to take 10 epee lessons to undo the damage one foil lesson did Of course he also said that foil was a decadent weapon that no one did anymore and was on it's way out.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Djej

What people don't realise is that RoW has absolutely no use in epée. In epée one only parries real attacks, ie ones that are meant to touch. Parrying false ones are a waste of time. They also invite a dérobement and a hit.

How does this differ from foil?

I mean, if someone isn't making a real attack, but a feint, and I go searching for their blade in foil -- I'm in trouble. Same thing with epee. In sabre, you're more than in trouble -- you're hit.

Drawing a parry is the purpose of a false attack. Falling for such a feint means trouble in all three weapons -- it's not something dependent on RoW, or something that gets covered up by RoW (in fact, if anything RoW allows more leeway for the person making the false attack, making it more likely that they'll get the hit in foil and sabre than in epee).

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Djej

What people don't realise is that RoW has absolutely no use in epée. In epée one only parries real attacks, ie ones that are meant to touch. Parrying false ones are a waste of time.

You could just as easily argue that RoW is ALL important in epee: if you're arm isn't coming out first to make the attack, your opponent is going to score with counter-attacks. You see very few "lost time attacks" in epee.

I usually tell foilists making a transition to epee that RoW exists in epee, with the difference in the weapons being that it is the opponent who enforces it, rather than the referee.

[Allen Evans]

Ah, I see that kalivor beat me to it!

[Djej]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

You could just as easily argue that RoW is ALL important in epee: if you're arm isn't coming out first to make the attack, your opponent is going to score with counter-attacks. You see very few "lost time attacks" in epee.

I usually tell foilists making a transition to epee that RoW exists in epee, with the difference in the weapons being that it is the opponent who enforces it, rather than the referee.

Well it could be that insufficient knowlege of RoW is a bad thing (my knowlege dates from the 1970ies!). I'm a candidate as mentioned above, taking more than ten epée lessons to undo my foil lessons. We learnt two parries- opposition and beats . In epée I need opposition (ok), but also to know how to cede. I can beat, but I don't think I've used that to any effect even once yet(unless it's for intimidation, which works on blokes for some reason). I did learn my foil in England, and the beating was supposed to give us RoW. But as I say, it was a long time ago. I do know that during my first epée lesson everyone was on the floor laughing, and the MA was groaning aloud at the noise coming from my area of the room.


However, what it has given me (though I don't agree), is that people say I have accurate point work. I never look like a combine harvester like some newbies do!

I do know that ex foil fencers in my group fence slightly differently from the pure epée ones. And sometimes it advantages them, and sometimes it does the opposite.