The Two Epeeists

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

I don't see why people think that the basics must be taught with foil. If the same principles that are applied in foil can be applied to other weapons, than they can be taught with other weapons as well. I don't think that simply because classically fencers are trained with a foil first is a valid argument as to why it should be done so today. It isn't like you just take your bad foil fencers and stick them in the other two weapons.

The basics are often taught with foil because it's the easiest transition weapon. It offers ROW--which makes a transition to Sabre less of a culture shock, and it is a point weapon--so that changing to epee' is less of a struggle. It's a good idea for three weapon clubs to start with foil simply because most skills gained can be reapplied. If you started with Sabre or Epee' and the person decided to switch to the other, it would be a huge change: "Why would I want to touch the hand?" "Why can't I touch the feet?" etc. So it really isn't a matter of what classically trained do, more as it is just practical.

[Esotamoc]

Originally Posted by achilleus

I disagree.

Why? I'm proof. I had a day of foil, and then started epee with a pistol grip. I had a good coach who taught me how to fence correctly. I've done OK in epee.

I occasionally pick up a foil at tournaments, never having had a lesson, and have won open events.

A good coach teaches a person how to fence correctly regardless of the weapon or grip they start with.

you are right. if you have a good coach then you dont need to do foil first. doing foil for too long before starting epee will teach you bad habits that can take a long time to fix.

[needle]

Originally Posted by achilleus

And babes. Can't forget the babes.

Oh, that's right - your mom got you into cross-dressing and was trying to hide you in ancient greek equivalent of Catholic school for girls - you're right, Homer didn't call you smart even once, but if you spent the time there the way I would in your place, can't call you too dumb either

[needle]

Originally Posted by Esotamoc

you are right. if you have a good coach then you dont need to do foil first. doing foil for too long before starting epee will teach you bad habits that can take a long time to fix.

I don't know how objective any of us can be here. After all, each of us came to epee via one of the two paths - there's no way for any of us to know how it would have been, had we chosen the other route.
I went through foil training first simply because at that time in that place they didn't train us any other way. No regrets - IMHO it doesn't matter much from epee training point of view whether you learn basic footwork, blade control, attacks and parries with epee or foil (as long as it's not saber) and foil's lighter - easier for children to go through longer practice.
Once we were ready to move to complex actions and tactical analysis, we switched to the weapons each preferred. My daughter is following the same path (she's 8 and just started) and so far it looks like that was the right thing to do for her too.
The point about picking bad habits is valid, but I think that it can be avoided (or at least made not too hard to fix) by switching over before you get too deep into tactics and the whole ROW deal.
For those starting as adults, it might make perfect sense to start in their preferred weapon immediately, but IMHO the way to pick preferred weapon is to try it; to try it intelligently, you need to know the basics; to me it still makes sense to learn the basics with foil, then try other weapons, then decide and start specializing.

[ReverseLunge]

In most salles foil is the prerequisite for epee. I took the introduction to epee class after I finished the intermediate and and advanced foil classes.

[ReverseLunge]

With the new foil timings you can't do a lot of the old moves like the flick or march with much confidence anymore. Your best bet now is to stick with a more classical style that is straight forward and very solid.

At first I was very against the new timings since I couldn't preform my usual magical flicks and marches anymore but now I can see the sanity of the new timings. In the past before electronics were introduced we really had to make the point stick. The blade really had to bend at the end of the attack in order to be valid. The traditional fencing model is slowly emerging as newly rediscovered wisdom!

The new foil timing has now made foil once again the training weapon for epee! Fencing with the new timings I now have to parry my opponent's blade completely out of line and riposte or else he will remise and lock me out (just like epee). Instead of the flick and the march the stop hit and the disengage have once again become king and queen (just like in epee)!

But most importantly I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico!

[Esotamoc]

if you are sure you will fence epee then there is no advantage in learning the basics from foil because the basics are different.in epee, you should learn to look for any opportunity to hit- whether counter attack, attack or remise etc and that a parry is just another means to hit and is only one option(neither preffered or discouraged) when faced with an attack. if you fence foil first it is no big deal, only it will take you slightly longer to adapt techinque and timing and you might end up with bad habits that continually resurface in your game.in the end circumstance and practicality dictate how you come to fence epee but if you can go straight to fencing epee then that is more desireable.

[WhipLash]

quote=mr epee
People mistake epee for being simple, and don't properly understand the extremely complex nuances that the weapon presents. Not having a good system/game in place, and well developed, leaves fencers (even good ones) confused and lost at times... cross-over foilists are already working from a defined system... even it's from another weapon.
/quote

can you give some examples of such naunces? i'm a foilist and from wat i can see at my club, the epeeists all juz train point control so they can hit the hand. maybe i juz can't see those subtle things...

[nyacfencing]

I am a bit of an oddity in that I started fencing epee and, after a few years, took up foil as well. I fenced both simultaneously for about 8 of my 16 fencing years, so I have plenty to say on this subject.

The primary reason I picked up foil was that I loved fencing and wanted more. There wasn't enough competition in Chicago at the time for more epee so I started up in foil. I was a solid B in both when I was fencing them simultaneously... and really enjoyed both. However I will say that the skills didn't translate well across.

In theory, I think that right of way would be helpful in epee. However I don't think that right of way, as it is practiced today, is helpful to epee as epee is practiced today. At issue is the way parries are performed in foil. Far from "stopping" an attack as they should, parries today are nothing more than gentle taps, and only conceptually stop the attack (but not actually). I am surprised at the types of parries foilists get away with lately... as referees appear to be too timid to tell the defender that their parry was ineffective. The paries used in foil today are simply too weak to be effective in stopping an oncoming epee. Epeeists rarely even attempt regular beat-parries... instead opting for the more effective bind. The beat is only used as part of an attact, and usually from a distance (such as a beat-attack to the arm).

Additionally, the timing is completely different. Foil has a rhythym to it which would be the death of anybody fencing epee. Epeeists instead try to do everything "off-time", intending to catch their competition off rhythym.

Lastly, epee and foil are very different games. Epee has a "chicken" component to it that just doesn't exist in foil. Foil has a beauty to it which doesn't appear in epee (even though I love epee, I will be the first to admit that foil is much prettier to watch).

I actually found that some epee skills were more effective in foil than vice versa. For instance, epeeists have a much better sense of distance than foilists. My long distance "fade-away" counter-attacks while retreating were often frusterating even to high-level foilists.

The difficulty in fencing both simultaneously was the switch-over. Far from the physical tactics used, there is a very different mind-set employed. To go from one to the other mentally was problematic... and I found it hard to be good at both on the same day (if I was double-stripping).

A month ago I fenced in a local foil tournament for the first time since 2000. I did pretty decent for my first time back, but the time lapse outlined ever-so-clearly for me the enormous differences between the two.

[oiuyt]

I, also, am a multi-weapon fencer (first 5 years exclusively epee, then a 2-year period gradually shifting to sabre, then primarily sabre for the past 4 years). While I currently only train in sabre, I still occasionally fence all three at the open level, because, as nyacfencing puts it, "I love fencing and want more" (tense changed to make the sentence work). Missed my foil B by 1 touch earlier this year, and re-earn the B in epee annually, with hopes of improvement.

Switching weapons is not impossible. Spending 5 years of epee (with no prior ROW experience) did not preclude me from being able to quickly and effectively develop an effective sabre game. Nor did the lack of a foil background preclude me from being an effective epeeist.

Fencing is fencing. There are some differences between the disciplines, but almost everything carries over. Once you know how to fence you can learn the modifications that you need to make to learn to fence another weapon.

-B :)

[broncofencer]

As many have said I feel the idea of starting with foil is now outdated. be it the flick or the rule changes competitve modern foil is very different from classical foil. A lot of what used to be taught in foil is no longer applicable. I myself teach a much more classical linear foil style which tends to lend itself better to epee than foil sucess. I too have seen foilist struggle with the minor subtleties of epee. the biggest being distance and form control.

So basiclly while I still teach foil first I think I could start with either foil or epee and get the same results. Of course with the new timings maybe I would get better results since I don't teach the flick.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by broncofencer

So basiclly while I still teach foil first I think I could start with either foil or epee and get the same results. Of course with the new timings maybe I would get better results since I don't teach the flick.

Ah, but the flick sequays beautifully into sabre, doesn't it?

James.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

even though I love epee, I will be the first to admit that foil is much prettier to watch

no no no no no no no no no no no!!!!!! epee bouts are much more intriguing and look so much more tactical. you have to see that!!!

[broncofencer]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Ah, but the flick sequays beautifully into sabre, doesn't it?

James.

When I try to do a flick they look and feel more like sabre attacks anyhow.

[shlepzig]

I think JBirch had a start on things in his first post.

Starting in foil, although is not necessary to become a great fencer in a particular weapon is certainly not a hindrance either. In begining foil you will learn the fencing phrase, attack, parry riposte, the basics of footwork and blade work, distance, timing, tempo and tactics.

These are the fundamentals in any of the weapons. Sound fandamentals from foil will allow you to start with any of the other weapons. Leaping directly into the subtleties of a weapon (such as precise countertime in epee, and the tempo changes of sabre) might affect a new students ability to learn the other fundamentals of fencing.

Foil fencers picking up an epee for the first time will not immediately get the target and the timing. They will spend a while adapting to the rules of the game, once they have that, they can apply those fundamentals well.

Foil fencers picking up a sabre for the first time. Will struggle with the changes with the phrase, and ROW. They will have to re-calibrate their timing to adapt. Their blade work will need to adjust dramatically, but the fundamentals will already be there.

Epee fencers coming to foil have to learn the whole fundamental of the phrase as it pertains to ROW. They certainly can, but it is a big hurdle to cover. They wiill have much more effective parries and better control of the blade.

Sabre fencers coming to foil already have 90% of the game their, but have to rework their timing to foil time, and struggle to adapt to a point weapon. They will bring some stunning attack-in-prep actions that will baffle equally experienced foil fencers.

Foil is also just a nice way for beginners to start. The touches aren't likely to come in as hard in untrained hands. Advance-Retreat-Lunge-Recover drills look the same in all three weapons. The weapons are lighter for younger arms (at the earliest ages to start, for most clubs, not counting cfaustus).

In short all the basic elements of foil can be found in the other two weapons, whereas sabre and epee have more specialized techniques that do not lend themselves to the other two weapons so well. At the higher levels (defined as when a fencer is achieving his first rankings) a fencer will have to understand the particular nuances of the weapon of choice(foil included). Building on those sound fundamentals though will make for a good fencer.

Shlep

(Currently fencing epee, fencing some less in foil, and might give sabre another try. Used to be the other way around)

[veeco]

I beg to disagree. I think fencing foil first, with the mindset of transfering to epee is going to teach you basic simple offensive actions, such as beat attacks, but it will not teach you good epee skills. Starting of with parry ripostes, parry ripostes are a different kind of beast altogether in epee than in foil.

Then there is the whole counter attack scenario, which is totally different in foil than in epee.

Add to that the different tactical scenarios that can be brought up during an epee bout than during the same foil bout, you get a very different set of skills and tactical mindset that have to be harnessed in both weapons.

In my opinion, it is better to start off with epee if you plan on making epee your final weapon.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Fencing is fencing. There are some differences between the disciplines, but almost everything carries over. Once you know how to fence you can learn the modifications that you need to make to learn to fence another weapon.
-B

You cannot be serious!
The fencing is fencing argument is outdated and absurd.

Sprinting, Hurdles, Triple Jump, 1500m, 5000m and marathons are all involve running, but are you going to walk into a track meet and run your mouth off that running is running?

Here's Joe Blow off the street... dress him up and put a foil in his hand. He is fencing foil. Put a saber in his hand. He is fencing saber. Put an EPEE in his hand. He is fencing epee. Put a spear in his hands. He is... well never mind.

I guess you MIGHT be trying to say something about ability to adapt (sort of) to a DIFFERENT event...

I have had the opportunity to fence two very good (One was an Olympic Finalist) foilists, in my specialty weapon, and easily defeated both of them... not at the same time, Zorro.

Being a good fencer in a specific event, has very little to do with the fact that you've stood in an on guard position before.

Want to fence more than one weapon? Sure go right ahead, and if your goal is to get out of the house, get away from your nagging wife, gf, mother, and fence as many pool bouts as possible, then you'll meet your goals with ease.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I have had the opportunity to fence two very good (One was an Olympic Finalist) foilists, in my specialty weapon, and easily defeated both of them... not at the same time, Zorro.

EPEE KING!!!! cool all of a sudden, i'm very eager to watch a 15 touch bout between mr. epee and achilleus...

btw, i think we're getting the argument screwed up. i don't think anyone is really saying that fencing foil first is necessarily better (at least i'm not), its that fencing foil first makes for easier transitions into the two other weapons since it has elements that are common to the other two while the other two weapons can't make that claim.

sure, if you fence foil first then go to EPEE you'll have to ingrain the EPEE nuances but there are certain fundamentals that will already be in place. at the same time, these same fundamentals can be taught starting in EPEE as well. there's no doubt that starting in a weapon with good coaching and staying in that weapon is the best scenario BUT, if one must make a transition, then i think that transitioning FROM foil is easier than transitioning TO foil.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by veeco

In my opinion, it is better to start off with epee if you plan on making epee your final weapon.

First, I am not disagreeing with Veeco, so don't get confused.

I agree, and am adding the following.

In the US, where Y-10 / Y-12 fencing is fashionable and increasingly competetive, children are often starting fencing at the tender ages of 5/6.

It is perfectly ok to start these youngsters out with foils, because they are lighter and easier to control, but teaching epee parries, ripostes, filos etc...

Epees are heavier and more difficult to manuver properly.