The Two Epeeists

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by OROD

There were 5 posts before yours. Do you mean to say you disagreed with everything that was said in those 5 posts? In my post alone I made several different statements, including saying that if epeeists started in foil that we'd see better epee fencing up through the national levels. Then, you site yourself as an example of why I might be wrong. Wow, are you really suggesting that you alone showing up to a tournament will single-handedly increase the level of fencing throughout the country?

Amazing!


.

OK, let me 'splain somthin' to you...

When I, or in general anyone posting, disagrees with a certain particular point raised by someone they usually quote them, and then offer their position on the quote.

For an example, take a look at my response to you. I quoted you, and then commented on your question.

When one doesn't post a quote, especially when the topic is new, one is generally referencing the initial post or comment made.

In addition, if you read my whole post, not just the first line, it's kind of obvious what I disagree with. I disagree with RL's assertion that an epeeist who fences foil first is better off. I disagree that lower level epee would improve if everyone did foil first.

I believe, and I am proof of this, that what we need, in the US, is better coaching overall.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Ach,

play nice...

Something I've always had trouble doing...

Maybe that's why I picked a combat sport....

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by achilleus

I agree with what you're saying, however I don't think it's necessarily an epee specific problem. I mean, how many great coaches in all weapons, does the US have? Epee had the fewest until recently, but I started fencing in a place where the best coaches were epee coaches. If I had started in a place where the best coaches were foil coaches, I have no doubt that my fencing career would be quite different.

I consider myself very lucky to have started with a good coach regardless of the weapon.

You're right. It's not an epee specific problem... but RoW seems to give basic direction even to untalented coaches.

When Attacked, you must defeat the attack, etc...

Most of the time, round the world, the answer is a parry.

You fence in a clearly defined system for epee... when actions occur you are more comfortable finding the solution that is correct within your system. It is an epee specific system.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Something I've always had trouble doing...

Maybe that's why I picked a combat sport....

You and me both, dude...

and out of curiosity, why do people's reading comprehension flat-line when they read your posts?

This has been happening a lot in the past few weeks.

You need to start a school called:

"Achilleus' School for Fencers Who Don't Read Good."

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

You're right. It's not an epee specific problem... but RoW seems to give basic direction even to untalented coaches.

Totally agree, and I was going to mention it in my earlier post, but didn't.

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

When Attacked, you must defeat the attack, etc...

Most of the time, round the world, the answer is a parry.

'Cept in certain parts of Canada where they teach the counterattack first.

[jBirch]

I'm not sure what to think.

I've tried students on the "Foil first" philosophy and on the "whatever weapon they wanted" philosophy and found I got about the same students each way.

Students that were destined to go into epee learned some really bad habits in foil when trained on that weapon first. In particular I was astounded at how bad foil parries and the concept of sheltering in ROW is for epee. Enforcing the concept of controlling the blade through the parry just didn't seem to stick to foil trained epeeists for some reason. Foilists that went into epee also felt that remise/counter-attack was the absolute worst thing ever and only spastic fencers who can't control themselves do those. Showing them that there is a time and a place for such actions was like preaching condom use in Catholic Sunday school. Physically, the foil-epeeist's stance ended up being much too low and showed too much knee/thigh target for epee and much too high for sabre. Their sense of distance and how to break it was all screwed up in both weapons. They often gave up arm/leg target for chest target without really understanding why. Angulation was a friggin' foreign concept.

What I did find advantageous was that foilists could moderately fence any of the other two weapons competitively. They intuitively understood the nature of both sabre and epee without needing a lot of coaching on the principals of each. They had a head start on tactics and technically good responses to various fencing problems mostly because there is significantly more participation in local foil fencing at tournaments then there is epee or sabre. Ergo, they got to fence a lot more people then they would have been able to do specialising in sabre or epee from the start.

I think what is valuable, around here at least, is to learn the basics on classical foil then specialise. It's no worse for the specialist weapon then starting in that weapon and gives the student a broader understanding of what is happening when they get to intermediate and beyond levels. French grip classical foil trains good posture and good fencing musculature that helps in the other weapons when the "correct" rules are relaxed and the competition more intense. It gives beginners something to do with their off hand, something Errol Flynn-esque that looks like TV, balances both muscles and slows things down enough that they pay attention to what they are doing more. Something that results in higher information retention and understanding in lessons.

Hope this helps.

James.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

You and me both, dude...

I think it's true for most seriously competitive fencers.

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

and out of curiosity, why do people's reading comprehension flat-line when they read your posts?

This has been happening a lot in the past few weeks.

Some do, not all. I think a lot of it has to do with me writing a post with some different thoughts and points of view, but not really taking one side or the other. In discussions it can be difficult to convey a nuanced point of view, especially in formats where it's much easier to argue in simple black and white terms.

Or it could be that I suck at writing, and I should go back to grade school and start over.

Either way, it's the same thing...

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

You need to start a school called:

"Achilleus' School for Fencers Who Don't Read Good."

Currently I'm working on a 'school for fencers who don't fence good', so my time is rather limited, but it is a tempting idea...

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Some do, not all. I think a lot of it has to do with me writing a post with some different thoughts and points of view, but not really taking one side or the other. In discussions it can be difficult to convey a nuanced point of view, especially in formats where it's much easier to argue in simple black and white terms.

actually its not that bad...just don't start that whole "tournaments become more competitive with cuts after pools" arguments again.. we really don't need a 98% cut.lol!!

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by achilleus

In discussions it can be difficult to convey a nuanced point of view, especially in formats where it's much easier to argue in simple black and white terms.

Haven't you heard? In order to make this forum more appealing to the media, the FIE has decreed that arguments should no longer be black and white. You will score an extra point each argument if your argument is electric blue, or better yet, tie-dye.




Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[jeff]

Good posts, except for the (blech!) golf reference

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by jBirch

In particular I was astounded at how bad foil parries and the concept of sheltering in ROW is for epee. Enforcing the concept of controlling the blade through the parry just didn't seem to stick to foil trained epeeists for some reason.

and i'm one of these foil trained epeeists and it took a while for the whole "controlling the blade all the way" idea to stick and at least become somewhat automatic in that i don't have to constantly remind myself. those parries are simply not done in foil. its not that hard to realize why foil trained epeeists have difficulty with the transition.

Originally Posted by jBirch

Angulation was a friggin' foreign concept.

still is for me...but i'm getting over it pretty quickly and its now a part of my game.

Originally Posted by jBirch

What I did find advantageous was that foilists could moderately fence any of the other two weapons competitively. They intuitively understood the nature of both sabre and epee without needing a lot of coaching on the principals of each.

and this is what the thread was about to begin with. this is the main advantage of doing foil first. there's a reason that maestro's have been doing it forever. there are elements in foil that are common to the other weapons. neither epee nor sabre can claim that so its no surprise that the transition is easier when doing foil first.

the problem i've always had with not doing foil first is this: most people enter fencing not being fully aware that there are 3 weapons. all they know is "fencing". if one starts in epee first for several months and doesn't like it, he'll have to start all over again by learning that concept called ROW so that he can adjust to a new weapon (i.e. foil or sabre). if he starts in sabre first for a few months and doesn't like it, then he has to learn a new concept: point control instead of edge so that he can adjust to a new weapon (i.e. foil or epee).

starting in foil first is just more convenient. if, however, one knows from the beginning that they really really really want epee or sabre and knows for sure that they won't quit, then it is possible to start with that weapon given you're fortunate enough like our greek god to have solid coaching from the beginning.

there's no one better method, just two different methods. we know one works, and our f.net greek god has proven that the other works as well.

Originally Posted by jBirch

It gives beginners something to do with their off hand, something Errol Flynn-esque that looks like TV, balances both muscles and slows things down enough that they pay attention to what they are doing more.

oh gosh!! no errol flynn...pppllleeaassseee!!!

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by glowstix

we know one works, and our f.net greek god has proven that the other works as well.

For the last time people! I am not a Greek God. I'm the greatest Greek Warrior descended from a god, but not a god myself.

(Except to you lovely young ladies in the first row.)

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by achilleus

(Except to you lovely young ladies in the first row.)

I feel a swoon coming on.....

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by achilleus

For the last time people! I am not a Greek God. I'm the greatest Greek Warrior descended from a god, but not a god myself.

oops...my bad...

[veeco]

I have to say I agree with Achilleus and Mr Epee's points. I think starting with foil isn't necessary to become a good epee fencer. There quite a few among the top epee fencers in the world didn't start out with foil.

A good coach helps, no matter what weapon you start with, but it also depends a lot on the type of fencing you start and train with. Some epee fencing schools are very similar to foil, others are very different.

[KD5MDK]

I'm waiting for oso97 to come in and discuss tunning an all sabre salle. Perhaps the title is keeping him away.

Personally, I think that some people are naturally suited for certain weapons, by mentality. (Physique has a role, but not as much of one. A tall skinny person can do plenty well at any weapon, they don't have to be in epee.)
I do cuts, regardless of if I'm in foil or sabre. I do them much less in epee, but in any event I'm naturally much more comfortable doing sabre, and my coach observed this despite all my training before then having been in foil (without ever having touched a different weapon). So I'm not really sure what foil taught me specifically, if I was already doing sabre moves in it.

[needle]

Originally Posted by achilleus

For the last time people! I am not a Greek God. I'm the greatest Greek Warrior descended from a god, but not a god myself.

And you just had to pick the only weapon where your only vulnerable spot is a valid target

[OROD]

Originally Posted by needle

And you just had to pick the only weapon where your only vulnerable spot is a valid target

His swelled head?


.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by OROD

His swelled head?
.

What's the matter? Disappointed you can't enroll in:

"Achilleus' School for Fencers Who Don't Read Good."

Don't feel so bad. Maybe next year, I will start such a school and grant you a scholarship. Although, I won't be offering any courses in humor, so y