New Rochism

[~V~]

If you look at the data from the investigations from fencing deaths at the international level in the 80s three main conclusions were drawn as to the cause:

#3 = propensity of fencer to counterattack (rather than defend)
#2 = all were left handed
#1 = pistol grips

I apologise for not having the citation handy - perhaps it will surface soon.

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by ~V~

If you look at the data from the investigations from fencing deaths at the international level in the 80s three main conclusions were drawn as to the cause:

#3 = propensity of fencer to counterattack (rather than defend)
#2 = all were left handed
#1 = pistol grips

I apologise for not having the citation handy - perhaps it will surface soon.

Section 4.2 of

http://www.exra.org/FencingChptr.htm

[Inquartata]

#1 is statistically meaningless. The sample is miniscule, and orthopedic grips comprise what? More than 90% of the grips used by modern epeeists and foilists? It's almost as bad as saying "All the deaths involved blades".

If it were really a grip-specific thing, would sabre, with no pistol grips, have as many deaths as foil, which used pistol grips almost exclusively? I mean, if the sample size were large enough to make any conclusion possible, that is.

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

#1 is statistically meaningless. The sample is miniscule, and orthopedic grips comprise what? More than 90% of the grips used by modern foilists? It's almost as bad as saying "All the deaths involved blades".

If it were really a grip-specific thing, would sabre, with no pistol grips, have as many deaths as foil, which used pistol grips almost exclusively? I mean, if the sample size were large enough to make any conclusion possible, that is.

Section 4.2 of

http://www.exra.org/FencingChptr.htm

contains the statistics referred to by ~V~. From that section of the report:

Only seven fatalities have been recorded since 1937, and most of these have occurred in highly skilled competitors in elite competition (5, 7, 13, 14, 16). All fatalities have been male fencers; five of seven deaths involved epée, with foil and sabre one each, and broken blades were responsible for the fatal wound in six of the seven cases.

Several characteristics or mechanisms that may contribute (either singly or in combination) to blade breakage, force of penetration, or both and result in death have been postulated based on the seven incidents discussed here. Most often noted are a right-handed fencer fencing a left-handed fencer, the use of orthopaedic grips, and the propensity to make counterattacks (4, 13). Each of these characteristics was present in a majority of the fatalities (although in different combinations). Further research is needed to determine if modifying one or more of these characteristics would decrease the risk of sustaining a catastrophic injury.

Without adequate exposure data, it is not possible to calculate accurately the risk of catastrophic injuries in fencing.

I believe the key phrase is 'Further research is needed'.

[Inquartata]

Yep. But still, no conclusion is going to be reliable until deaths exceed about 30. Less than that and any finding can still be distorted by statistical anomalies.

I hope we never get there...

[~V~]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

#1 is statistically meaningless. The sample is miniscule, and orthopedic grips comprise what? More than 90% of the grips used by modern epeeists and foilists? It's almost as bad as saying "All the deaths involved blades".

I think taking a closer look at the blades is an excellent idea. Somebody just posted the link to the article and then it disappeared before I could reread it. If I recall, during the early 80s, pistol grips were fairly common but had yet to truly overtake the French grip. Perhaps things were different at the International level.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

If it were really a grip-specific thing, would sabre, with no pistol grips, have as many deaths as foil, which used pistol grips almost exclusively? I mean, if the saple size were large enough to make any conclusion possible, that is.

I don't have any data on deaths by sabre in International competition, could you provide some?

Also, just curious - do you think the pistol grip has difficeincies? In other words, asuming that there will be another evolution of the grip, what would your ideal be?

NB: I see the references are back! Please take my comments accordingly.

[oiuyt]

7 fatalities, 5 in epee, 1 each in foil and sabre.

The three conclusions mentioned by ~V~ was each present in a majority of the 7 fatalities. Just from cursory reading of the paper, so was fencing epee (5/7) and being male (7/7). Being male is present in a majority of elite-level fencing bouts (more men than women fence). Fencing epee is true in less than a majority of elite bouts (I believe epee has a plurality but not a majority of participation internationally).

edit: broken blades were also present in a majority of the cases (6/7).

It would be interesting to see if anyone can dig up the source articles for those conclusions:
4. Clery, R. Apropos d'un accident. American Fencing Sept.-Oct. pp. 7-11, Nov.-Dec. pp. 7-11; 1983.
13. Parfitt, R. The fencer at risk. In: Armstrong, J.R.; Tucker, W.E., eds. Injury in sport. London: Staples; 1964: 173-190.

I'll start googling and see what I find, but with the dates they're not particularly likely to be available online.

-B :)