Turning your head for a yellow card.

[larkmaj]

In my hometown area the fencers seem to have the idea that if you expose the back of your head that is a cardable offense. Like when you think a light went off and you turn your head around to look at the scoring machine. Even the instructor at the club calls a yellow card for that. I have looked through the relevent parts of the USFA rulebook and I can find nothing referring to this call. Since a yellow card is given it MUST be a 1st group offense, but the closest thing I can find to it is "Turning the back to the opponent" (t.21). The rule specifically states "It is forbidden to turn one's back on one's opponent during the bout." I see nothing about the head.

Seeing as I started fencing in this area I learned that as a yellow card offense, now I'm just trying to figure out if my interpretation is correct in that you can turn your head so long as you don't turn your back.

Am I missing something here? Has anybody else heard of this rule which seems to not exist?

[peet]

Sounds like the folks you refer to are interpreting the "no turning the back" rule to mean "don't turn the back of your head towards the opponent either".

I've not seen it applied that way, but alot of people do cite the safety risk of exposing the back of the head to the opponent as the reason for the "no turning" rule, so some people may feel that means it's illegal to turn the head either.

Depending on who you ask, that safety issue may or may not be the actual reason for the rule.

In the end, I don't think i'd award any penalty for turning just the head, as long as the body doesn't accompany it.

HTH,

-p

[larkmaj]

When I first heard of it they said it was a safety thing. I have since learned that most of these such rules were not created for safety reasons but to prevent people from cheating.

I believe it was the Russian national team that made t.21 p2 necessary (the one quoted above).

[KShan5[PrFC]]

turning the back is not a safety issue...it is to stop cheating....if safety where an issue the usfa would just issue a rule that the mask has to have a protective plate in the back of the mask to protect yoru head. you must have your shoulders turned [tp your oppoenet] for the halt to be called and for a card to be issued.

[El Chucko]

I have seen this offense interpreted in various ways. In my opinion, it often IS a safety issue, although it is hard to make that point when the rule specifies "back" instead of the exposed back of the "head."

Anyway, I wish more referees were willing to call this offense, to be honest. I have seen many uncontrolled and unsafe fencers who make squirming away from an attack a part of their regular game, often while covering valid target, or even holding the opponents blade under their bent weapon arm.

Mind you, I'm not talking about a well-timed and well-executed inquartata... I mean something much more ugly or even dangerous.

[KD5MDK]

Anyway, I wish more referees were willing to call this offense, to be honest. I have seen many uncontrolled and unsafe fencers who make squirming away from an attack a part of their regular game, often while covering valid target, or even holding the opponents blade under their bent weapon arm.

There's an offense for that. But it's not turning the back.

From the Hanbook for Referees:

Turning the Back: In all weapons, it is illegal to turn one’s back toward the opponent. (This is not turning the head. Do not give fencers a card if they turn their heads so that they look behind themselves.) This warning should be given when the fencer turns her or his back toward the opponent; it is not judged by the angle to the strip. The warning is not given when a fencer goes past the opponent, as “Halt” would be called at the passing. Any touch scored with an action with the turning of the back is annulled.

[Purple Fencer]

I call that one all the time...probably the most frequent yellow card I throw out.

As for a properly executed inquartata...once the box lights up, the action's done, so if you land the inquartata and THEN exp[ose your back or back of the head, three's no penalty.

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by peet

Sounds like the folks you refer to are interpreting the "no turning the back" rule to mean "don't turn the back of your head towards the opponent either".

I've not seen it applied that way, but alot of people do cite the safety risk of exposing the back of the head to the opponent as the reason for the "no turning" rule, so some people may feel that means it's illegal to turn the head either.

Depending on who you ask, that safety issue may or may not be the actual reason for the rule.

In the end, I don't think i'd award any penalty for turning just the head, as long as the body doesn't accompany it.

HTH,

-p

I would card for this because I believe the only reason (from a logical standpoint) for not turning the back to the opponent is to not have your head shish kabobed. It's a safety issue. I don't know of any other reason why this rule may have been implemented; anyone know something I don't?

[Dave The Bastar]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

I call that one all the time...probably the most frequent yellow card I throw out.

Originally Posted by Be_Like_Water

I would card for this

Under which rule/heading?

[Katman]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer and El Chucko

properly-executed inquartata

The way I was taught to do this involved a nifty little dancy sidestep that in no way exposed the back or back of the head, not the full "spin around and wrap yourself in the reel cord" method I do now and watch others do as well. Did you guys mean the former or the latter?

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by Dave The Bastar

Under which rule/heading?

Depending how it's carried out, it can either be under the turning the back rule, or if they dip their head sufficiently (ie so that their head is actually looking at the floor), you could card them for substitution of target.
Don't ask me what exact rules they are, but that's what I card them under, if I have to.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by D'Art

Depending how it's carried out, it can either be under the turning the back rule, or if they dip their head sufficiently (ie so that their head is actually looking at the floor), you could card them for substitution of target.
Don't ask me what exact rules they are, but that's what I card them under, if I have to.

Dave's point is that turning the head to look at the machine, thereby exposing the back of the head ISN'T either turning the back or substitution of target (or any other offense for that matter, which is why the Referee Handbook, as cited by KD5MDK, specifically tells referees NOT to card for doing so).

-B :)

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Dave's point is that turning the head to look at the machine, thereby exposing the back of the head ISN'T either turning the back or substitution of target (or any other offense for that matter, which is why the Referee Handbook, as cited by KD5MDK, specifically tells referees NOT to card for doing so).

-B

Depending how the fencer does it, it can be turning the back, trust me, I've seen it and done it many times over the years (more so in the last season than previously, but that's for a different arguement, which I'm sure you guys have already had several times)

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Be_Like_Water

I would card for this because I believe the only reason (from a logical standpoint) for not turning the back to the opponent is to not have your head shish kabobed. It's a safety issue. I don't know of any other reason why this rule may have been implemented; anyone know something I don't?

As stated before, I think (I could be wrong about which team) it was a Russian national team that made this rule necessary. In epee the would do a move where they would turn their backs, send their epee between their legs, and have it nick the side of their leg as it goes through, making it appear that they scored the touch on the opponent. It took the team practicing this move IN FRONT of the officials for them to notice it. That's why this rule was implemented.

[broncofencer]

If turning the head is such a saftey issue why has the flick over top of the mask not cardable? I know I have taken several of these to the back of the skull and officials did nothing even when I asked because I was starting to welt from aqll the miss hits.

I might guess that if it is just at your club it may be a way to get you to stop looking at the box. Your coach maybe using the yellow card to stop a really bad fencing habit. So what started as a way to keep fencers from looking at the box has become so ingrained in the fencers at your club that it is now a "rule". This is just a guess though.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by el chucko

a well-timed and well-executed inquartata...

Is there any other kind?

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by el chucko

a well-timed and well-executed inquartata...

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Is there any other kind?

You've been executed?!!? Careful with the semantics, lest the epeeists declare a holiday and begin dancing in the sttreets.....

[El Chucko]

Is the Referee Handbook "legally binding" though? At tournaments and as a source of authority, I have only seen the actual rulebook cited.

In other words, some of the rules are somewhat vague and open to interpretation. That is by design, in some cases. I am not sure if a fencer or referee would be justified in using another book or whatever to back-up or dispute a penalty, other than the official USFA/FIE rulebook.

(Oh, and KATMAN, I was talking about the nifty sidestep...)

[Mr Epee]

A poorly executed inquartata would be the work of an amature hangman.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by larkmaj

As stated before, I think (I could be wrong about which team) it was a Russian national team that made this rule necessary. In epee the would do a move where they would turn their backs, send their epee between their legs, and have it nick the side of their leg as it goes through, making it appear that they scored the touch on the opponent. It took the team practicing this move IN FRONT of the officials for them to notice it. That's why this rule was implemented.

Urban Legend...