"Eyes Open"

[Prince Twilight]

When bouting, I usually apply what my coach calls the Tactical Wheel, staying one spoke (trying to) ahead of my opponent. This is, I understand, a common practice. However I recently heard my acquaintence mention a method called "Eyes Open"... he would not speak at length about it. Is it a supplement to the tactical wheel or is it an alternative? Can you give me some details?

[keith]

....most often used to refer to a coaching technique where the student must select the appropriate tactical response (normally from a preset selection) to a varying cue from the coach. Also called choice-reaction.

In a bouting situation it is probably being used to refer to selection/alteration of actions 'mid phrase'.

Think of it as seeing what your opponent does as they do it rather than launching an action simply based on what they did in the preceeding phrase (guessing in polite terminology).

[dramamine]

I was always told that there are basically just two types of actions: open eyes and closed eyes.

open eyes: I start doing parry 4 riposte with 1 disengagement, my opponent bends over, and I see it and flick them on the back.

closed eyes: I plan the action before I do it and execute it. I figure out that if I do a balestra and a feint my opponent will do counter 6 so I close my eyes and do a balestra lunge with a counter disengagement.

I think the better fencers get the more their actions become open eyes, because their opponents will be changing constantly and they won't be able to just make assumptions all the time. Of course there are still very pre-planned actions but I think there are less.

Then again I never ever think of any of this while fencing and I'm pretty sure doing it is suicide... I never bought the tactical wheel thing either though so what evs.

[telkanuru]

"Eyes Open" IMHO refers more to developing muscle memory into a branching tree of cause and effect. You begin with a simple probing action that causes a reaction from your opponent. From there you have a choice of actions, each one intended to try to make a hit while setting up another chance if this one fails. I can give you some examples from my coach's lessons.

C: present blade
S: Beat, hit hand (hitting here dosn't matter. If you do, awsome, but the point is to provoke)
C: Counter-6
S: Disengage, lunge to chest
OR
C: Counter-attack
S: Bind blade in 6, lunge to chest
C: Step back
S: Fleche to chest
OR
S: Redouble to chest.

This is really the first sequence my coach teaches. They get more complex.

By contrast, my college coach is a more "eyes closed" person. This method is generally associated with German fencers AFAIK (Mr. Epee: "If you can do 2 disengages, you can defeat 90% of all Germans."). An example lesson from him would be

C:Present blade
S: Take in 6, but press at the end, causing
C: exaggerated counter 6 as a reaction to the forceful blade pressure
S: counter-4, lunge to chest

Another example
C: present
S: advance w/beat, retreat
C: present
S: repeat
C: begin to follow
S: advance w/beat
C: advancelunge to chest
S: Half-retreat, take blade in 6, lunge into opponet's advance

I don't know what the tactical wheel is. Also, I'm actively trying to blend the two styles. It's slow going, but I'm hoping for a nice payoff.

[Prince Twilight]

Okay I think I understand... in a nutshell eyes closed means you have a set plan in your head about what the action will look like and you provoke it from your opponent. Eyes open means you react to your opponent during the action. I take it that Eyes open is harder but more reliable, since your opponent might not follow your plans?

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

However I recently heard my acquaintence mention a method called "Eyes Open"... he would not speak at length about it. Is it a supplement to the tactical wheel or is it an alternative? Can you give me some details?

"Eyes Open" does not describe the physical act of keeping your eyes open or closed during an action. Rather it relates to writings by Zbigniew Czajkowski, most specifically: Fencing Actions, Terminology, Their Classification and Application in Competition. You can read this short paper here: http://www.tacomafencing.com/documents.html

Professor Czajkowski speaks of actions that start with a known beginning and whose ends are "forseen", "unforseen"or "partially forseen". In other words, a preparation is made, and if all goes according to plan, the ending is planned: you feint, the opponent makes the appropriate parry, and you disengage and lunge to score. You planned this, so the start and ending are both "forseen".

On the other hand, the response by the opponent may take one of several different actions, requiring the student to pay attention ("eyes open") and finish in something other than an "forseen" ending. You feint, and the opponent takes an unexpected parry. The ending is " partially unforseen" (you have to do a different diseangage than you planned).

In the lesson, "eyes open" reminds the student that unexpected actions - surprises - often occur.

I don't know if Professor Czajkowski coined the "eyes open" term but he uses it often when he writes, and it fits in very well with his classification of fencing actions. I've never heard of actions being described as "eyes closed" though I made a few when I was fencing, I'm sure!

Click on the link above (and thanks to the Blue Steel Fencing Club for posting the paper). It's worth reading!

[Prince Twilight]

I'll take a look at that link, thanks. Any more answers, or is that basically it?

[jeff]

I think that's basically it - "eyes open" means you're prepared to respond in real time to whatever presents itself. My favorite, simplest example is: you make a feint, and are equally prepared to deceive parry 4 or counter 6, rather than assuming one or the other. This is something you train for - it does not happen automagically.

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

Okay I think I understand... in a nutshell eyes closed means you have a set plan in your head about what the action will look like and you provoke it from your opponent. Eyes open means you react to your opponent during the action. I take it that Eyes open is harder but more reliable, since your opponent might not follow your plans?

Not quite, at least not from how I understand it. I take "eyes closed" to mean what you take it to mean, but I would take "eyes open" to mean the ability to change your movements in response to what you know your opponent does (obviously this is easier if you've seen your opponent fence before), rather than just reacting to them.
"Eyes open" is really what makes the best fencers the best, as it depends on how well the fencer can control themselves, whereas "eyes closed" can be taught to just about anyone.

Like I said, this is just what I understand of the two terms.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I don't know what the tactical wheel is.

if both people attack, you get crap- no touch or double, either way, nothing that's going to help you. in response, one person changes the action-- picking up the parry. the response to someone picking up the parry is.......... etc. until you get to countertime stuff, at which point, you just start actually attacking again.

if you want something more detailed, i could either actually get my notes out, or i'm sure you could look it up somewhere.

[oiuyt]

There are others, but the common long and short tactical wheels are (short is the first 4 stages of long, then back to the first stage, long has 6 stages):

Simple Attack -> Parry Riposte -> Compound Attack -> Counter Attack -> Countertime -> Feint-in-Time -> Simple Attack

It represents better in a circle/loop/wheel (hence the name). As MP mentioned, it's a visual depiction of a number of classes of tactics used to help students learn which tactics are likely to be best utilized to counter the tactic selected by one's opponent. Opponent has been scoring on counter attacks? Use countertime. Opponent has been successfully using FiT against your CT? Go back to simple attacks. Etc. Longer version of rock-paper-scissors. :) Once in the class of tactics you of course still need to select the actual tactic that you will choose (what type of countertime, etc.). TY or DB should be able to give you loads more information if you're interested.

Eyes open vs. eyes closed has been covered well here already, but I'll recap with my understanding anyway. :)

You can have foreseen, unforeseen, and partially unforeseen actions, as mentioned by Allen Evans. Foreseen actions are ones where you predict ahead of time what's going to happen and execute. These are "eyes closed". Unforeseen actions are not predicted -- opponent does something and you react. Partially foreseen actions get further subdivided. They all have a foreseen beginning and an unforeseen finish. You could either plan that -- you're going to feint and then try to read the reaction to know what to do next (deceive in various ways, continue into the finish, abort the attack) -- or it could be a change of decision situation where you had a plan but something in the middle unexpectedly caused you to deviate from your plan. Difference is whether or not you were expecting a decision point.

-B :)

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

the tactical wheel is really theoretical, but hard to apply. Example, I could hit you with a simple fleche, then on my next action, hit you with a feint in time, or lure an attack and counter attack. Realistically, with some fencers, the tactical wheel isnt followed, its spun. Round and round it goes, where it stops, only 1 person knows, leaving the other person totally out of time, distance and tactic.

The more effective option would seem to be to just "use the force" and just let the actions flow out of your fencing. If you're in tune with yourself and your opponent, you can naturally and unconciously select the correct action. This is where self awareness and the uninterupted connection of mind and body come into play. Through this method of just feeling the bout, the correct action can be chosen every time, even when your opponent is trying to think 9 steps ahead of you, you can have the final action without even thinking about it.

Example: Two fencers go at it, they get up the intention ladder to 2nd or 3rd intention, maybe higher. Theoretically, it can go on infinitely, but someone chooses the wrong action, or botches up the distance/timing/technique, and the other guy gets a point. If you're really in tune, the intention doesnt matter, nor does being mentally ahead of your opponent matter. This is why sometimes a fencer of inferior technical/tactical prowess can defeat a fencer who SHOULD beat him, but is so bogged down in the tactics and theory that they lose.

This is my opinion, and I'm sure it will be disagreed with.

[Allen Evans]

I don’t find the ideas of “foreseen”, “unforeseen” and “partially foreseen” that helpful as a fencer in a bout (and I have never though of it in terms of a “tactical wheel”) but I do find the ideas helpful in structuring lessons as a coach.

Beginners usually work best in actions with a foreseen beginning and a foreseen - or partially foreseen - end. As the fencer gets better, they can work from foreseen beginnings to unforeseen ends and “change of decision” actions. Finally the coach can start throwing in unforeseen beginnings, and that’s when the lessons get fun.

Brad, shouldn’t you be practicing for your practical?

[Peach]

For me, there's another aspect of "foreseen" actions--you do a set sequence not just as a formula, but as a chosen strategy in order to make your opponent do exactly what you want. That is, you act as the coach, providing cues for your opponent which the opponent perceives as openings. Thus, doing things "open eyes" ends up being a bad strategy for your opponent

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Brad, shouldn’t you be practicing for your practical? :)

Took it on Monday. I'm back home now.

Even had a tactical wheel question on the written (the first of the ten essay questions was something along the lines of "Explain the long tactical wheel and give multiple examples of how you would teach the concepts in a lesson").

I learned the concepts of the tactical wheel my first year of fencing, as a prt of learning various actions. When I was first presented with the tactical wheel my reaction was something like, "well, duh, of course that's how the actions fit together", probably because, while not explicitly mentioning the wheel, the theory was part of the teaching. I've seen many experienced fencers and coaches that first encounter the concept at Coaches College that have considerably more trouble getting it all straight.

That said, I extremely rarely consciously think about the tactical wheel when bouting. I don't find that my opponents tend to follow the progressions well enough for it to help. I do find it a useful teaching device, as the theory is important in my opinion and it's a nice way of representing the theory. Additionally I have found it a useful device for some of my students to use when stuck during a bouting situation -- "S/he keeps hitting me on a stophit, what should I do? Oh yeah, the next stage on the tactical wheel is countertime, I'll try that and see if it works." I know some fencers believe that you can take an opponent/bout through the various stages, staying ahead of where your opponent predictably is, I just haven't experienced many opponents that fit that mold particularly well.

One other place where it comes in handy is when designing lessons with a rational progression. As a coach it can help when planning lessons (either a series of lessons, or, more commonly, the actions worked on within a lesson) to think about the progressions in the TW and structure the flow of the lesson(s) accordingly.

-B :)

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

Okay I think I understand... in a nutshell eyes closed means you have a set plan in your head about what the action will look like and you provoke it from your opponent. Eyes open means you react to your opponent during the action. I take it that Eyes open is harder but more reliable, since your opponent might not follow your plans?

I don't know whether or not this is a saber thing, but the way I was taught was you plan what to do before hand, (e.g. feint to 5, hit at 4) and improvise as needed (opponent doesn't pick up on your feint, so simply finish to 5). Hehe, would this be an "Eyes Wide Shut" tactic?

[oso97]

Nah... a "partially forseen" drill