Define Passed and Passing

[luv2fence]

Hello all,
Can you help me with the definition of these terms?
passed passing

I assume feet are Not a guide. The action is
called based on torso position; that is just my guess.

To me these have an intuitive meaning if
the torso of each fencer is erect.

What if the torso of one fencer is at 45-60 degrees
to the vertical; in other words a fencer in a lung
position with torso almost horizontal?

l2f

[KShan5[PrFC]]

There is no such thing as passing. An action either occured before the pass, or after the pass. Nothing can happen "during the pass". This makes things easier as a ref.

[luv2fence]

All,
I am trying to gain an understanding of the physical
relationships of the fencers. Has anybody addressed
these issues with an official interpretation?

There are two important cases (quotes from rules):

1)"as a fencer passes" which I call passing.
2)"past" = "after passing"

The distinction (1 vs 2) is important because
in case 1 the fencer can score,
and case 2 he cannot.

I quote the USFA rules below.

6. Displacing the target and passing the opponent
t.21 Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the
action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip.
It is forbidden to turn one’s back on one’s opponent during the bout.
Should such an offence occur, the Referee will penalize the fencer at
fault as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120 and any touch scored
by the fencer at fault is annulled.
When a fencer goes past his opponent during a bout, the Referee
must immediately call ‘Halt’ and replace the competitors in the
positions which they occupied before the passing took place.
When touches are made as a fencer passes his opponent, the touch
made immediately is valid; a touch made after passing his opponent
by the competitor who has made the passing movement is annulled,
but the touch made immediately, even when turning round, by the
competitor who has been subjected to the offensive action, is valid.
If during a bout a fencer who has made a flèche attack has a touch
registered against him and he continues to run beyond the extreme
limit of the strip sufficiently far to cause his reel or the connecting
line to his reel to be torn out, the touch which he has received will
not be annulled (cf. t.103).

luv2fence

[larkmaj]

this may not be correct but this is what i learned from my college club

you pass your opponent when your shoulders go past your opponent's. i can't remember specifically which shoulder pass which (front or back)

when the rules state "as a fencer passes his opponent" this is up to the point where the pass actually occurs (the shoulders crossing)

the way i learned to interperet this rule is this (fencer A passer, fencer B he who is passed):
1) fencer A can make a valid touch on fencer B up until the moment fencer A actually passes fencer B

2) fenver B can make a valid touch on fencer A so long as the movement that results in the touch was started before fencer A passes fencer B

i wonder if that makes sense as i'm falling asleep...

[luv2fence]

larkmaj,

What you wrote sounds consistent and addresses
the the exact issues. You are using shoulders as
the criterion with front/back shoulders left vague,
especially if one shoulder leads.

This is still a useful method, I think.

All,
How would you call it? What is reasonable?

l2f

[lovetofence]

Originally Posted by luv2fence

larkmaj,

What you wrote sounds consistent and addresses
the the exact issues. You are using shoulders as
the criterion with front/back shoulders left vague,
especially if one shoulder leads.

This is still a useful method, I think.

All,
How would you call it? What is reasonable?

l2f

I would agree with larkmaj.

I use the attacking fencer’s front shoulders passing the back shoulders of the receiving fencers as my mark of when the threshold of "being passed" is commencing.

[ReverseLunge]

when your sword shoulder goes past your opponent's non-sword shoulder. There are acceptions like when you or him are crossing shoulders.